Busytown: Less is more
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But that is absurd, don't you think? Imagine reading a novel then coming upon a description that is suddenly in quote marks with a footnote or endnote! No, better that you write a novel using all your own words, even if you have consulted other works for information.
Exactly. Footnotes have no place in a novel (unless you're Terry Pratchett, Kurt Vonnegut, or David Foster Wallace, I guess). The sort of exception I was thinking of was not footnoting per se, but doing what Witi does at several points in his novel, which is to say something like "Wakefield's speech was inspiring, especially when he said..." (NB this is a remembered example).
Even then, I'd rather have the character describe how the speech affected them, maybe including a phrase that lingered in their mind, rather than wading through paragraphs of the speech itself.
And i don't think novelists (providing they are not copying directly from others of course) should list all their resources, either. I think this reduces a novel to an assemblage of facts and diminishes the work of imagination that goes into it. A novel is not an academic paper, nor is it non-fiction.
Yep, I think you're right there too. Maybe one or two really pertinent books that changed their thinking. And Ian McEwan, for example, could have signalled further something like "I am indebted to Lucilla Andrews's powerful memoir for one indelible scene, which alert readers will note for themselves."
Plus,one of the dangers of appearing to give a comprehensive list is that you're in trouble if it turns out not to be comprehensive.
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Rofflenui, OtherDavidH.
So I've been having a few illuminating conversations with people on both ends of the literary editing process. Gosh the literary sausage factory is a mysterious business, even, or more so, when it's gourmet sausages we're talking about.
I have always assumed that authors submit really, really, really clean copy, just because I'm a fusspot about that myself. But not all do -- some really are better storytellers than they are writers. I say that rather jealously as someone who is a better (journeywoman) writer than (blazingly creative) storyteller.
In any case, it sounds like the publishing houses might want to spend a little more lolly on their editors and prioritise the editing. Sure, it would mean rejiggering the budget, but think what they'd save on reprints/amendments/errata slips and all that after-market PR.
I'd love to hear from any honest-to-goodness editors (or people who've been lucky enough to submit to a really good one) on this, if they're feeling bold enough to break cover??
Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?
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I play it in C, but transposing into your basso profundo cowboy G, I'd use an A minor where you've got A7.
Always with the A minor...
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Most beautiful chord in the world, that's why. Wanna arm-wrestle over it?
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And i don't think novelists (providing they are not copying directly from others of course) should list all their resources, either. I think this reduces a novel to an assemblage of facts and diminishes the work of imagination that goes into it. A novel is not an academic paper, nor is it non-fiction.
Well, I'd suggest you advert your eyes from Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell's magisterial From Hell -- whose 500 page plus bulk includes around 80 pages of fanatically detailed annotations. They're not only fascinating in their own right, but I think they cast an interesting light on Moore's thematic concerns: That the Ripper murders not only cast a light on what a cess pool of bigotry, misogyny and class division Victorian England was, but how it made a society where murder is entertainment.
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arm-wrestle
"Duelling ukeleles" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
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There is possible danger for the novelist in this. I liked Pat Barker until I read the sources for her Regeneration Trilogy, i.e. Graves, Sassoon, etc. and realized how inferior her writing was to theirs. After reading the sources she seemed -- to employ the terminology of comparative literature -- a bit crap.
Then again, if you put Graves and his mistress/muse Laura Riding in a novel, I wouldn't believe a word of it. Those two were proof that life is not only stranger than fiction, but if you put it in a novel you'd just be setting yourself up for a lifetime of random drug tests.
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are Ukuleles corrupting our youth!
This image of a basso profundo cowboy in
a G string, always with a minor...
... is rather disquieting (in the low range of course)
I remember similar objections to Batman and Robin's relationship... and they an often be seen hanging on a string to nowhere!...anyway, I'd always thought a Basso Profundo was a particularly deep thinking latin perch - guess I was just piscine in the wind...
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Fred Wertham -
"Duelling ukeleles" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
As Jolisa once suggested, we could remove the strings from our ukuleles and attempt to garrotte one another in order to settle the argument. This does seem like a reasonable way to get a definitive (and very final) answer to the A minor question, I must admit. I can easily imagine Jolisa giving my lifeless body a kick, and then saying: "Most beautiful chord in the world, that's why."
Actually, it could even spin-off into a reality TV series, where other important questions are settled via this approach.
Tim Tams vs Chit Chats being the obvious first episode.
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I'd always thought a Basso Profundo was a particularly deep thinking latin perch - guess I was just piscine in the wind...
Haw! Nice to see you still on deck and seducing the innocent after all these years, Wertham. Anyway, you're an inspiration to hack one's own B. Profundo by fitting Bigmouth Billy Bass with an mp3 player loaded with a spoken-word version of Desiderata.
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might want to spend a little more lolly on their editors and prioritise the editing
I think it would be surprising if they did. Books don't generally sell based on who the editor was so it's always going to be easy for the accountants to say the editor is less important than the author and hence should be paid less (and of course paid less than the accountant).
Yet they clearly play an enormously important role for many books.
Regarding plagiarism and the difficulty of finding a new way to say the same thing. I write journal papers describing our work. Each of those has an introduction where we say why our field of study is the most important thing to study (spend money on), what is currently known and why we chose to do these experiments. For me it becomes increasingly difficult to find a different way of saying the same thing each time. Even worse when I read someone else's paper and see a sentence that expresses the idea perfectly. How then can I write an inferior sentence simply to avoid repetition. But it must be done. Even more important when you mention someone else's results they must be referenced ... must. Learning to do that is part of learning the profession.
Like Islander I've really enjoyed reading these threads. Jolisa's posts have been an insight into her knowledge and skill and the comments from authors have given me a sense of how hard they work.
But I also have been saddened by this, not because it happened, people make mistakes, make poor choices and they can and should be forgiven. I'm happy to accept that it was more laziness and poor methods of work than maliciousness. My sadness comes from the lack of spine shown by The University and some of The Media. In this case the author made a serious error of judgement, he was very wrong to do what he did. A professor at the university did something wrong and that needs to be made clear and it needs to be clear that there are consequences, not simply excuses.
He probably should not lose his job and he most certainly should write more. But thus far the reaction seems to be one of dismissal, "plagiarism is unimportant ... it wasn't very much". That saddens me.
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I hate it when people engage in off-thread discussions
That's basically my entire raison d'être on teh internets. Oh dear.
Speaking of NZ classics and the ukulele, I once got a proper musician friend to work out the chords for Toy Love's 'Rebel'. But my skill level is far too low to do it justice.
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I'd always thought a Basso Profundo was a particularly deep thinking latin perch
lolnui
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Tim Tams vs Chit Chats being the obvious first episode.
Ooh, ooh - vegemite vs marmite.
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But thus far the reaction seems to be one of dismissal, "plagiarism is unimportant ... it wasn't very much". That saddens me.
Can't remember if anyone already linked to Mr Litterick's dry take on this.
It is reassuring to know that the University takes all cases of plagiarism seriously, regardless of the status of the plagiarist.
..his subsequent complaint to the University
The Faculty, and thus the University, has shown itself to have no moral integrity in this matter.
..and their response - in full:
Thank you for your letter. The University has guidelines and procedures for staff similar to those for students and this case has been dealt with in accordance with those.
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Books don't generally sell based on who the editor was so it's always going to be easy for the accountants to say the editor is less important than the author and hence should be paid less
How I laughed! Often in the chain of things the author gets paid less than everybody else, editor included, especially when you break it down into hours spent, but even if you don't.
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Books don't generally sell based on who the editor was so it's always going to be easy for the accountants to say the editor is less important than the author and hence should be paid less
No, what the "accountants" do is pink slip all the editors and farm all their work out to freelancers.
And while books might not sell because of who the editor is, they can attract authors. In SF/fantasy, I don't think its any coincidence that TOR Books is a major publisher in the SF/fantasy with well-respected names like Tom Doherty, David Hartwell and Teresa and Patrick Nielsen Hayden on the door.
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@David:
"My lovely wife (a linguist) speculates that it would be possible to develop a language in which there is only one grammatically correct way to write a 100,000 word novel."
English.
Take a grammatically correct novel and change some of the words. You'll either end up with a different novel, or one that's grammatically incorrect.
Let's say you've replaced the word "hello" with the word "sheep". This will likely result in a grammatically incorrect novel.
Alternatively, let's say you've changed the word "red" to the word "cherry" and the novel is still grammatically correct after those changes. This is now a different novel. So what if most of it is the same as the previous one? Professional authors have recently shown that two novels with some similar content are in fact different, and that it's acceptable to publish the results...
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Footnotes have no place in a novel (unless you're Terry Pratchett, Kurt Vonnegut, or David Foster Wallace, I guess).
Not a Mark Danielewski fan, then?
Sorry I ever complained about the endnotes in Infinite Jest, now. At least they're right side up, in English, and by a single 'author'.
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Not a Mark Danielewski fan, then?
Not yet - ta for the tip!
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This years plagiarism is next years ' found art'
Hes just working in the wrong genre
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It is genuinely encouraging to see how many people are unwilling to let this roll over to become just an other yesterday's story.
I celebrate in song (to the tune of "The Judge's Song" from Gilbert & Sullivan's "Trial by Jury.")When I Ehoa was called to the Arts my ambition it brimmethed over
A work or two I rapidly penned and found myself in clover.
I'd numerous tales of whaea and whales and scores of whakatauki,
Which extended my reach in many a speech from the reverent to the jokey.
And now I'm a laureate (Chorus.:and a good laureate too)
Yes now I'm a laureate (Chorus.:and a good laureate too)
Though my paragraphs were nicked...
Yet I'm the one they picked...
And the 50 K they flicked....
To a good.... laureate....too.To minorities twain I do belong
Which enhanced my reputation
All the hetero Liberalsl grovelled so low
Twas moral masturbation
The critical eye passed calmly by
My plethora adjectival
For to so allude would be dull and rude and professionally suicidallFor now I'm a laureate (Chorus.:and a good laureate too)
Yesnow I'm a laureate (Chorus.:and a good laureate too)
Though my prose was second hand
Yet I'll take that 50 grand,
I might... buy back some more land!
Like a Good Laureate true! -
And a good.. job... too!!!!
Nice one, Spike. (Instant flashback for music geeks, but for anyone struggling to recall the tune, it's here).
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are the Pirates of Pens antsy...?
The Judge's Song" from Gilbert & Sullivan's "Trial by Jury."
and will the punishment fit the crime?
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Shiver me timbers, matey! It's curious coincidence time:
Ihimaera borrows a paragraph from the Cornish missionary William Colenso for his Treaty of Waitangi scene.
William Colenso had (at least) two sons, one by his wife Elizabeth, another by her Maori maid, Ripeka. The white son, Ridley, went to Cambridge, then moved to Scotland.
While the other son, Wiremu moved to Cornwall, and lived the rest of his life in.....yes, Penzance.
Truth, as so often, not just stranger but stronger than fiction.
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