Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: A Full Sense of Nationhood

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  • BenWilson,

    Mark, you can fuck right off too. I'm tempted to post that about another 10 times to catch up with you, but once is actually enough. You ran out of material pages ago, lost the plot and now you're just being a wanker.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    This really is a conversation that people need to end I think.

    Given that Russell is away with his big stick, everyone could be adult about it and stop themselves.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    He does it all the time, and not just to me.

    Well, I won't be the judge of that, it's obviously up to others to decide whether that particular shoe fits. I can tell you that what I try to do is to discuss on the basis of what my interlocutor is saying, which sometimes involve me quoting it back and taking it to what I honestly consider to be its logical consequences. And yes, when those consequences seem absurd to me, or illogical, I try to emphasise it and that can lead to my being snide on occasion. Maybe even often.

    And yes, I agree with your summary as per the previous page, that's pretty much what I've been arguing against, simply because I disagree with it and I think it makes some pretty shocking assumptions about culture. Except every time sombody (not just me, I believe) points out what they perceive to be a fallacy in your argument, you shift it elsewhere, which is why you ended up saying so many things - it all started with the relatively simple idea of the macrons, as you might recall, which you turned into a thing about pedantry and spelling and then blah blah blah.

    If it can be of any consolation, I doubt I'll be following you on another one of these mountain stages of the Tour de France in the future. It was exhausting, and there were no girls to kiss me and hand me flowers at the end of it.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks,

    Ben,

    I don’t think it was accurately described as an ad hominem because it was intended to mock your argument, not principally to be an attack on your person, per se. If anything, you yourself seem to be saying it was a straw man, not an ad hominem.

    every time sombody (not just me, I believe) points out what they perceive to be a fallacy in your argument, you shift it elsewhere, which is why you ended up saying so many things

    I understand your point, and don’t agree with Ben on the original macron thing, but I also have a little sympathy with him. I grant the digressions were his own fault, but that said, if someone engages the digressions they’re still liable for criticism of their own argument – and there’s been instances of specious reasoning from Ben's critics here, too. For example, when Ben was asked what would happen if the writer of a document was dead or otherwise uncontactable, he made the reasonable point that we might resort to other documented comments by the author, if there were any, to add to the evidence of what their intent might have been. This produced a strident yet confused response from David Cauchi.

    We all agree that Linger made intelligent and eloquent comments on this topic. But how similar are the following points...:

    - "it makes perfect sense to me to consider other writings by that author as potentially helpful evidence."

    - "I think the standard thing to do is try to find other references to the same ideas by the author."

    Ben's point was a fair one, but there seems to be a dtermination to rubbish every little aspect of what he says, without much thought somethings.


    Having said all that, I agree with Kyle that little more constructive can come from continuing this discussion. I will try to stop myself from further adding to it.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1165 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    taking it to what I honestly consider to be its logical consequences.

    There's nothing honest in what you've been doing.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Cheers Steve, I'm glad I'm not just imagining it. You get that way when a bunch of people all try to argue with you at the same time as telling you to shut up and piss off, call you a colonialist, tell you you're not educated, say you said things you didn't, etc. Most normal people are simply driven out quickly by such behavior.

    Anyways dude, I'm glad you got something out of it. Have a good weekend.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    There's nothing honest in what you've been doing.

    There goes your respect for the author's stated intentions. Bye now.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Respect cuts both ways mate.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    Dear Ben

    Now that was an ad hominem attack. But I forgive you

    Bye

    ~mark

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

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