Hard News: Conversation Starters
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I have seen people theorise that the rise of the British empire was due to getting at tea and/or coffee early, meaning that they had a safe liquid to drink that didn't make them drunk all the time.
Interesting theory. Wait, did I write 'interesting'? I meant "for crying out loud"...
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Stewart, you are making an assertion. You are asserting that my assertion is wrong. And then you're demanding me to research the case to prove you wrong. When I've got some spare time, maybe, but so far all I've got is quite a large personal sample of anecdotal evidence. What have you got?
Given how widespread the adult love of alcohol is, if it were actually innate in some way, I'd expect at least some children to display it. NONE have, in my experience.
And no, Daniel, I haven't given any children alcohol (well, ok, 16 is technically a child). But I've observed them asking for it off their parents over the 37 years I've been alive and I've never yet seen a taker, with the exception of extremely sweet alcohol. That I have seen children return to. I feel the sweetness throws out that data a little, since it's obvious that children like sweet things. Is anyone going to ask me for scientific evidence of that?
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I don't think that outlawing tea or test match cricket or the Winter Garden would suddenly make those things terribly sexy and desirable. People get drunk because they want to get drunk, largely.
In Muslim Java bands are apt to chant 'alcohol..alcohol..alcohol' with the kids as a rough equivalent to the Woodstock Fish Cheer and to try and get a rise out of the cops, who generally either don't understand, don't care, or maybe are a little pissed themselves (as per a recent scandal where cops were found drunk in a traffic control...a loose term here..booth with an empty bottle of Jack Daniels, although likely the pirated local version).
I guess the kids feel the need to rebel against something.
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And no, Daniel, I haven't given any children alcohol (well, ok, 16 is technically a child). But I've observed them asking for it off their parents over the 37 years I've been alive and I've never yet seen a taker, with the exception of extremely sweet alcohol.
I tried Lambrusco, Gin Fizz, beer and grolla when I was a child. I liked all but the fourth.
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Having your reflexes slowed even a little bit in nature can be harmful. Why is it that no other animal will drink it unless it's been watered down, or added to something they really want to eat or drink?
Actually, a certain level of tipsiness actually facilitates co-ordination in humans. Higher order cognitive processes can interfere with the the motor planning in the cerebellum, and a little inhibition of the cortex can help (Possibly most noticed in the sweet spot between a certain number of drinks and playing pool).
Also, in the trawling through the science before there are a number cases where actually animals do quite like a drink.
Finally, in case you're not too familiar with fermentation, the ethanol kills the yeast around 14%. Thus, talking about animals only liking it watered down is crap. Humans and animals find naturally occurring ethanol solutions quite palatable (or at least a decent proportion of them). It is only through distillation that we can make ethanol strong enough for everyone to find it tastes nasty, and for it to have really serious toxic effects.
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He vomited most of it up, but still looked pretty ropey for a few days.
We have a another dog, a dacshund, who licks toads and then staggers around the garden in a haze before lying in corner for 12 hours of so with a sore head. She also tries to bring snakes inside. No bright.
I'd expect at least some children to display it. NONE have, in my experience.
I think that may be just you, as I, on several occasions, have seen parents giving their kids a small sip of mum or dad's beer or wine. We had a family event a few years back where we had a wee discussion with a relative who was happily letting his pre-schooler sip. The kid liked it. We were not amused, but it's not that unusual and you see a lot of kids in rural pubs drinking. I was allowed a shandy when I was a kid and quite liked it.
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JackElder, I wonder if your dog actually likes being pissed. It's a possibility.
I don't really think the source of the taste is particularly important. My only real motivation for raising the natural distaste for alcohol is simply in response to a number of comments people have made about how bad it is that alcohol that children do actually like is available, and how we could solve problems by teaching children to like the (IN MY OPINION OK EVERYONE) nasty arse shit that adults like to drink. As if liking alcohol for it's taste is somehow superior, or more adult or responsible. It is not.
Which makes me think that the reason people think the sweet drinks should have more limited availability is because they innately know that it would simply put more kids off alcohol period (except of course those ones who by whatever quirk of unlucky fate actually do like the taste). Otherwise I can't make head or tail of the antipathy towards alcopops or other 'targetted at children' drinks.
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Simon, it is entirely possible that I have associated by pure chance with only the children who don't like alcohol my whole life. I certainly have seen children trying it, but I have always assumed a screwed up face and subsequent avoidance meant dislike. I don't deny other people's experiences though.
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I have seen people theorise that the rise of the British empire was due to getting at tea and/or coffee early, meaning that they had a safe liquid to drink that didn't make them drunk all the time.
In eighteenth-century England, coffee was seen as a utopian drink. The idea was that it would replace alcohol, leading to a new world in which people would be sociable, quick-witted, and above all industrious. Coffee-advocates saw alcohol as anti-social and regressive -- an unfortunate hang-over from the medieval past.
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Simon, it is entirely possible that I have associated by pure chance with only the children who don't like alcohol my whole life.
Taste and smell are both strongly coded for in your genes (whereas vision, surprisingly, it not). Thus, it's entirely possibly that people's experiences are influenced by hanging out with people with whom they share genetic material. So I'm not sure that chance has a lot to do with it.
Otherwise I can't make head or tail of the antipathy towards alcopops or other 'targetted at children' drinks.
Alcopops are to alcoholic beverages what pokies are to gambling. They're optimised for suboptimal use.
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Oh Bart, you romantic dawg you. I bet they just swoon in your arms, don't they?
Only one :)
And that is plenty :)
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@Ben
You kicked off by declaring "I drink alcohol to get drunk. The taste of the stuff is disgusting, as is usually the case with toxins." And then went on to generalise from you own experience that "the only training of the taste buds that goes on with alcohol is in disconnecting them from your gag reflex, and then telling yourself you love it."
You claimed that "alcohol is what people are in it for, and the tastes are just way of justifying that, whereas, with your blazing, unimpeachable honesty, have "never been able to stomach the lying-to-oneself involved in saying yucky things are nice."
As Emma pointed it, it was coming across a bit arrogant, and you weren't paying any attention to what anyone else was saying, including people who brought those sweet, sweet data.
It is a funny thing to have such a long argument about though … politics, anyone?
PS: The Mac's Light I'm drinking has quite a rap on the back label about taste. It says "Beers brewed in the range of 1% or less are typically unclean and unfermented with a taste too redolent of the initial malt wort."
But not theirs, because they have a way of making a low-alcohol beer that:
… looks and tastes like beer; the kind of beer that has hops, esters, bitterness, aroma, charm, mystery and the promise of another one to follow.
Because ….
We suspect you're not drinking a light beer because you'd rather be drinking lemonade.
I'm quite impressed that they used a semicolon. The patter on beer labels really is getting more stylish.
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Alcohol is in fact, a solvent
So is water. Your point is?
Are solvents a new target of chemicalism - if it dissolves stuff it must be bad. (Almost all liquids are solvents for something, either polar or non-polar).My points are.
Ethanol extracts flavour compounds from grape skins, hops etc that are not extracted by water. So by fermenting and producing alcohol you extract more flavour into the liquid. Also true in cooking BTW.When you remove alcohol from a fermented liquid it is nearly impossible to avoid removing flavour compounds at the same time.
So the point is alcohol free wine/beer whatever has less flavour.
Alcohol in wine/beer is more volatile than water. When placed in the mouth fluids with alcohol are warmed and alcohol vapour is formed (as is water vapour just less so). That vapour is carried up to receptors in your nose where you actually perceive most of the taste of anything you ingest. Fluids without alcohol produce less vapour in the mouth and without alcohol some compounds in the fluid are not carried to the nose.
So the point is a non-alcoholic wine/beer is not perceived as having as much flavour.
All to explain why alcohol free wine is not present on your supermarket shelves in large quantities. It just does not taste as good.
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The patter on beer labels really is getting more stylish.
The patter on Mac's bottles, perhaps. Over at Speight's they still haven't mastered the difference between its and it's.
politics, anyone?
Another 15 rounds on Bakunin and his crazy ideas, Russell? I might just have to reassure myself beforehand that I still like the taste of some of the liquids in my pantry.
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Is that sort of how it work?
Pretty much. It would be a major achievement if we as a society made it to that point. To further spell out the thing on alcopops.
People sometimes play poker for whole experience of playing poker, including the social element etc. People sometimes do the same with things like wine-drinking. On the other hand pokies are straight gambling (and are very behaviourally tuned to resist extinction/stopping), alcopops are straight drunking (and tuned for maximum alcohol and palatability per dollar). -
On the other hand pokies are straight gambling (and are very behaviourally tuned to resist extinction/stopping), alcopops are straight drunking
Drinking/drunking, nice. What I remember thinking the first time I saw the Ed Byrne skit, and it applies to Ben's argument as well, is that it would have gone down like a lead balloon in Italy, where there's much less of a "drink to get drunk" culture and taste matters as a matter of culture.
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It isa funny thing to have such a long argument about though
Nah it was too hot to do real work and it's a light-hearted subject to ran.. er discuss.
You did head the blog up as conversation starters and like many conversations it wandered a little :).
I just hope Emma isn't too upset.
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Nah it was too hot to do real work and it's a light-hearted subject to ran.. er discuss.
True that. It's now 5pm Friday. I'll have to deeply introspect about my motives if I end up having a beer with my colleagues before I go home ;)
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And that Alcopops are crap, they don't have the requisite adult sophistication to bring about positive drinking habits. In other words Alcopops encourage childish drinking behavior.
See James' really rather excellent quote:
Alcopops are to alcoholic beverages what pokies are to gambling. They're optimised for suboptimal use.
There's evidence that they overwhelmingly appeal to underage drinkers.
Foster's was forced by public pressure last year to stop selling RTDs with high alcohol content and a big hit of caffeine and taurine -- little party bombs for the kiddies.
They now voluntarily limit themselves to 7% alcohol -- which still seems really bloody high for something that tastes like lolly-water.
I do know one mum who thinks alcopops are okay for her daughter, in that they're better than doing what the other girls do at parties -- pour cheap spirits into fizzy drinks -- because they're a measured dose. Which is a reasonable view. They're still quite strong drinks.
Finally, a journalist I know was told by a cop that "South Auckland doesn't have a P problem -- it has a Woodstock problem."
I looked it up. Woodstock Bourbon and Cola clocks in at 12%, in a beer-sized bottle. That's fucking crazy.
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Alcopops are crap, they don't have the requisite adult sophistication to bring about positive drinking habits. In other words Alcopops encourage childish drinking behavior.
Is that sort of how it work?
Yeah, and they're intended that way. Studies of alcohol advertising show that they're disproportionately marketed at adolescents and have very high brand recall with underage drinkers. One recent US study found that over 75% of sampled 13-14 year-olds had drunk RTDs in the previous 30 days. This is what they're for -- it's how alcohol is packaged for that market segment. So, yeah -- cynicism, recklessness, harm; go alcohol industry.
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I just hope Emma isn't too upset.
She's staunch as.
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Just before I head home to drink some wine with alcohol, probably a nice Sav blanc on this hot evening.
The LA times with a story on alcohol free wine.
this quote fits with my experienceAfter swirling, sniffing and spitting, the testers concluded that the primary thing these wines lack is what is known as “mouth-feel” – a certain thickness and the rich sensation of flavors bursting in the mouth. “Alcohol knits a wine together and gives it weight,” Brown says. Without it, the wine tastes thin and watery.
And if anyone wants to try some there is an importer in NZ.
cheers
Bart -
On pokies, probably the core of the addictiveness is the frequency of reward. That includes a lot of teeny wins but also I can see how there's also a kick in loosing. Several time a minute.
And the flashing lights also count. I'm told Playstation is useful for various kinds of addicts who are missing their fix.
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Some figures on RTD consumption (from David Jernigan, 'The Need for Restraint', Addiction 102, no. 11 [2007]: 1747):
[S]tudies by the Center on Alcohol Marketing and Youth (CAMY) have found that advertising placements for alcopops are often placed on programming and in publications more likely to be seen by youth ages 12–20 years than by adults of the legal drinking age (21 and above in the United States and 18 and above in almost all other countries). For instance, from 2001 to 2005, youth saw 58% more advertising for these beverages per capita in magazines than adults. In 2005, although there were only 22 alcopops advertisements placed in national magazines with readerships measured by industry-standard sources, 20 of these were in magazines with disproportionately large youth audiences. On television, from 2001 to 2005, 29% of advertisements for alcopops were on programming more likely to be seen by youth than by adults—the most of any beverage category. On radio, in 28 of the largest radio markets in the United States, 52% of alcopops advertisements in 2005 and 31% in 2006 were on programming more likely to be heard by youth per capita than by legalaged adults (calculated from data licensed to CAMY by Arbitron and MediaGuide).
Youth survey data from the United States echo Copeland et al.’s findings about the popularity of alcopops among adolescents. According to the annual Monitoring the Future survey of US schoolchildren, in 2006 76.2% of 13–14-year-olds consumed ready-to-drink beverages (also known as ‘alcopops’) in the past 30 days, 73.1% of 15–16-year-olds and 64.7% of 17–18-year-olds. The level of use and amount of difference is even more marked for female drinkers: 86.9% of 13–14-year-old female drinkers, 79.6% of 15–16-year-old female drinkers drinkers and 75.1% of 17–18-year-old female drinkers had a flavored alcoholic beverage in the past 30 days in 2006.
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@ Rich
The evidence is very clear... the best way to reduce alcohol related harm is to reduce the number of outlets selling alcohol in a community.
Got references?
This study used an ecologic design based on data from 1990 to 1994 gathered from forensic, vital statistic, census, law enforcement and liquor licensing agencies to assess the relationship between liquor outlet density and alcohol-related health outcomes in New Mexico. Linear regression models show that suicide, alcohol-related crash, and alcohol-related crash fatality (adjusted for age, sex, and minority status) are significantly associated with liquor outlet density. Data also show that, compared with the first tertile, suicide and alcohol-related crash rates increase about 50% and the alcohol-related crash fatality rate two-fold with the third tertile of liquor outlet density. Greater availability of liquor outlets is associated with higher rates of suicide, alcohol-related crash, and alcohol-related crash fatality.
"The strong longitudinal relationship between outlet density and violence greatly strengthens the evidence base that density of alcohol outlets in a suburb is a driver of violence, making liquor licensing and planning regulations legitimate areas for public-health interventions," said Livingston.
But a veritable drop in the ocean of the studies available, and just what I picked off a very quick google search. Most of the studies will only be available on proprietary academic databases.I was working in the office of one of the Ministers responsible for this during the policy development process. Officials provided very compelling evidence, well backed up with references to studies, that outlet density is an extremely important determinant of the welfare of a community. I am currently in Auckland (still on holiday) and without access to my old files so can't give you the studies referenced by officials. But believe me, it was a very robust and evidence-based policy process.
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