Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Dopamine psychosis and other great nights out

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  • Russell Brown,

    Hi folks. I'm a bit late with this post, so i thought I might as well kick it off on System asap.

    I'm pretty sure I have the above correct, but if anyone knows different, please feel free to say so.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • James Green,

    They really do need some kind of framework. Not that the bill is going anywhere, but they could do much worse than extending the definition of therapeutic to include "fun" things, and roll them in with the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill.

    One of the daft things is that if you buy super-market branded paracetamol, it's sold in the same dose size and absorption rate as any other paracetamol. Much the same way that if you drink 2 different beers that are 1.2 standard drinks, then they're going to be approximately the same. But is BZP like that? Hell no.

    And I also think in reviewing the "safety"of such products, it's also worth comparing them to other things that people do for "fun". Perhaps unsurprisingly, there are numerous sport/recreation activities that are more dangerous (both in terms of fatalities and treatment costs; hard to get comparable data on long term health risks however) than things like party pills. I don't see the govt in line to ban fishing, horse-riding, or mountaineering on public safety grounds...

    Limerick, Ireland • Since Nov 2006 • 703 posts Report Reply

  • peter mclennan,

    that Chris Knox Labour ditty - sounds like he's singing "its a BITTER way with Labour..." he he he. What will National top that with?

    AK Central • Since Nov 2006 • 159 posts Report Reply

  • Robyn Gallagher,

    Today's Herald has two interesting stories on the state of drug use, based on the results of a Massey University drug use survey.

    It seems that the rate of cigarette smoking amongst young New Zealanders has increased. One theory is that the kids don't like the man telling them not to smoke, so they're sticking it to the man by lighting up.

    And while booze, fags and party pills are popular, marijuana and P are on the decline.

    However, the findings were based on a phone survey, which makes me wonder how many people would feel more confident admitting to legal rather than illegal drug use to a stranger on the phone.

    Since Nov 2006 • 1946 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens,

    The banning of BZP is pretty small beer really compared to the growing scandal of alcohol abuse in this country. Despite the claims to BZP being a far more healthy alternative to P (which it is) the primary use of party pills in the wider community has been to use them as part of poly drug abuse so the user can stay upright and drinking all night. Once upon a time drunken munters seldom lasted past 1am down at the top 40 nightclub, now these pests hang around at clubs all night, fall over, getting in the way and generally disturbing the more refined psychoactive experiences of an aghast dedicated late night crew.

    Why we are expending so much time in the grip of a BZP moral panic when its obvious to anyone over 35 that alcohol use is soaring (I heard somewhere the other day a amazing statistic, that NZ has more liquor outlets than Australia - can this really be true???) escapes me. Neither the government nor the main opposition party seem inclined in the slightest to buy a fight with the powerful pushers of the liquor industry, but it seems to me that the Herald should spend a lot more time debating the merits of 24 hour off-licences and allowing anyone with an indoor lavatory and no serious convictions to put up their shingle as a "sports bar" in your local suburban shopping strip than on BZP.

    Sevilla, Espana • Since Nov 2006 • 2217 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    One of the things that really doesn't make sense about the present system is that drugs are illegal if they can be construed to be illegal (ie: by arguing that a substance is an analogue of an already restricted drug) -- and if they can't, they're legal until further notice.

    This is what happened to methylone, the ingredient in Matt Bowden's Ease pills. Having taken it (when it was legal) I can say that it was a far more desirable, and safer, legal high than the scary crap the London Underground people are selling.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    My view remains similar to that of Matt Bowden: you're not going to stop people taking recreational stimulants by simply making them illegal -- we know that. And, rather than letting cowboys like these London Underground idiots run so-called "trials" with dangerous chemicals, it might just be better to swallow hard and pursue a proper approval process for chemicals that have no therapeutic value apart from enhancing a night out.

    That makes as much sense as not invading Iraq. Obvious to everyone but the politicians,

    Chris Knox's theme tune for the 2008 Labour campaign ... I think it's going to work for them.

    What, like get them elected? That's one powerful song ...

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    It seems that the rate of cigarette smoking amongst young New Zealanders has increased. One theory is that the kids don't like the man telling them not to smoke, so they're sticking it to the man by lighting up.

    Ah, peer group pressure. S'pose it's better they rebel by smoking ciggies than Weed or P.

    the Herald should spend a lot more time debating the merits of 24 hour off-licences and allowing anyone with an indoor lavatory and no serious convictions to put up their shingle as a "sports bar" in your local suburban shopping strip than on BZP.

    Yes, when is the govt going to call 'time' on that 'experiment' in 'free market' de-regulation'?? Ditto for the Pokie machines. Is there any demonstrable community benefit to either? Both appear to suck dry the wallets ('scuse my mixed metaphor) of those that can least afford it.

    I was also bemused the other day by a comment a Queenstown business woman made on the TV News after the council decided to limit alcohol consumption to 4am (instead of the current 7am/24 hr limit). She was worried that young people wouldn't come to Queenstown if there wasn't anything to do. Eh?

    So they're not coming to ski? They're coming to party?

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens,

    Like every other English speaking society it is impossible for us to have a sensible debate about drug policy. The debate (since Churchill is still on the mind) quickly become ignorance wrapped in moralising inside hypocrisy.

    Sevilla, Espana • Since Nov 2006 • 2217 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    Now when you can’t remember how many houses you’ve got, and which one you live in, $20 or $30 a week may seem pretty unimportant. For a lot of Kiwi families it’s crucial.

    Heh, that's the Cullen that was MIA last election. I am sure talk of moving him aside is wishful thinking from the opposition.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    ...drunken munters seldom lasted past 1am down at the top 40 nightclub, now these pests hang around at clubs all night, fall over, getting in the way and generally disturbing the more refined psychoactive experiences of an aghast dedicated late night crew.

    Change the club you go to? Or move to a more civilised city, if that doesn't work. I don't notice excess of drunken munters in the clubs I go to in Auckland/Wellington, but then I try and avoid the mainstream clubs in the Viaduct/Courtney Place.

    Is there any demonstrable community benefit to either?

    Why does there need to be? I think those pokie bars full of braindead morons suck, but there's a simple answer - don't go to them. People should be free to do what they want without there having to be a "community benefit".

    She was worried that young people wouldn't come to Queenstown if there wasn't anything to do. Eh?
    So they're not coming to ski? They're coming to party?

    Correct. Or, if they're like me, to do both. Why shouldn't they?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Like every other English speaking society it is impossible for us to have a sensible debate about drug policy.

    I think one reason for that is that it's all so fscked up at the United Nations level. If you don't go hard and ban everything that everyone else is banning you're seen as a backslider. A bit like anti-terror laws, really ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    that Chris Knox Labour ditty - sounds like he's singing "its a BITTER way with Labour..." he he he. What will National top that with?

    If National comes up with anything with lyrics that asinine and condescending, there's going to be a few Nats campaign folk wishing that they had the Tuhoe Liberation Front on their doorsteps. You know something, it's not only protestors who need to get off their moral superiority trips, and treating people who don't think like them as something slightly less than human.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Why does there need to be? I think those pokie bars full of braindead morons suck, but there's a simple answer - don't go to them. People should be free to do what they want without there having to be a "community benefit".

    Got kids? A lot of those people pouring their money into pokies do. Are you saying society has no interest there?

    The irony is that the interested parties who want to keep the pokies in pubs invariably argue for the community benefit of the revenue they raise for sports teams etc. Unless, of course, the money is actually going to people running complex frauds involving fake invoices and stuff ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    You know something, it's not only protestors who need to get off their moral superiority trips, and treating people who don't think like them as something slightly less than human.

    I missed the verse that said that. Is it only on the special edition CD?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Oh, and before anyone get Mandy Rice Davis on my arse (well, he would say that, wouldn't he) - I think there are now, and always have been, plenty on the right who could with a wee fistful of party pills laced with STFU.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    I think the original article in the Herald was more than somewhat biased, as techinage points out here.

    They didn't clearly distinguish between one company behaving unethically and others (e.g. Stargate) who were much more sensible.

    Something I pointed out in my submission on the BZP bill is that there has been amost no attempt by the government to implement any kind of regulation on the production and sale of party pills.

    Of course, the other point is that there is already a perfectly good stimulant/empathogenic drug available that has known effects, is regularly taken by millions and is no more harmful than alcohol and tobacco. It's called MDMA.

    If that was legal (or even just tolerated) people wouldn't feel the need to play with exotic alternative chemicals.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Got kids?

    Oh why won't somebody think of the children! (TM)

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Unless, of course, the money is actually going to people running complex frauds involving fake invoices and stuff

    Or, as I heard of one prominent Auckland politician and publican doing, simply making the benefiting charity be his political organisation. I guess that could be called taking a cavalier attitude to the rules?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    I missed the verse that said that. Is it only on the special edition CD?

    Oh come on... catchy tune, but I don't think you need a Ph.D. in textual analysis to get the subtext. We care, they don't; we love all the colours of the rainbow, and they don't. Gag... Sorry, but it's why I've freed up a lot of time by not reading 99% of American political blogs anymore - because I can enjoy an bare-knuckle argument, but I've really lot my stomach for bullshit (however attractively packaged or well coded) where if you don't agree with us, you're not only wrong but stupid or evil.

    And am I really the only person who got through the 2005 campaign feeling as if our politics has gotten a little too 'American' for comfort?

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    If National comes up with anything with lyrics that asinine and condescending...

    Asinine and condescending billboards okay, though?

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    a wee fistful of party pills laced with STFU.

    You reckon we could get Jacqui Dean calling for a ban on STFU? That would be legendary.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Peter Martin,

    <quoute> And am I really the only person who got through the 2005 campaign feeling as if our politics has gotten a little too 'American' for comfort?</quote>

    No,and yer spot on. Politics is getting very tribal with common ground being the antithesis of electioneering and policy.

    I trust no party here had any 'advisors' about last time...

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 187 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Beard,

    24 hour off-licences

    Where?! The last time I tried to buy a bottle of wine on the way to a party, everything had closed at 11pm.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1040 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    there has been amost no attempt by the government to implement any kind of regulation on the production and sale of party pills.

    I gotta agree with you there Rich, and to me that would seem to be the obvious solution to the problem. But since the party pill lobby don't donate to the poltical party like the liquor lobby do, there will be no sensible policy.
    But I can't agree with your other point:

    I think those pokie bars full of braindead morons suck, but there's a simple answer - don't go to them. People should be free to do what they want without there having to be a "community benefit".

    RB answered first, and stole my thunder, but I would also add that Pokies are addictive, and have hooked a lot more ppl than the Horse Racing (equally moronic) ever did.

    The irony is that the interested parties who want to keep the pokies in pubs invariably argue for the community benefit of the revenue they raise for sports teams etc. Unless, of course, the money is actually going to people running complex frauds involving fake invoices and stuff ...

    My brother was actually on one of those 'committees' that aportion the 'proceeds' to 'community groups' a few years back. He and his mates formed their own club, and sought funding for what was essentially a 3 day 'sports fishing trip' up North. Hired Boats and accommodation all to be paid for by the funds sought. But they were an officially registered club so they met the criteria for funding. And by 'fishing trip' I mean 'drinking binge'.

    And when his application came before the committee he declared his interest, recused himself, left the meeting room, the funding was approved, and he came back in. He said it was like musical chairs because everyone on the committee had a pet project, all seeking big bucks. Then Toddy got arrested and they all resigned (one by one, so no-one would notice) from the committee. The govt had signalled that the gravy train was over.

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

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