Hard News: Making it up on smacking
186 Responses
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
sod all resemblance to its historical use
You mean when it was all those defined as citizens that were allowed to vote and who gladly resorted to poison and assassination if the vote went against their personal wishes all the while happily using the non-citizens as slaves.
Ah history, so glad it's in the past.
There is a lot of wishful thinking about "democracy" and how good it is. Similar to the wishful thinking about the free-market.
Interestingly, technology may make both things quite different in the future, it is technically possible now for the populous to vote on the fly on issues (security issues notwithstanding) and the market is already much free-er than many businesses would like.
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Steve Parks, in reply to
Actually, I think that’s exactly why they get it, to prevent them from committing further crimes. Not given lightly, but there are some who just continue to offend and are deemed a risk to public safety.
Yeah but just “we think they might” commit a crime isn’t enough. The court has to be satisfied that they’d be likely to commit particular crimes. So you’re making the basically the point I was getting at, but was too lazy to expand upon.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
The court has to be satisfied that they’d be likely to commit particular crimes.
And for them to be kept inside beyond the court-imposed non-parole period, the Parole Board must continue to be satisfied that the prisoner continues to be likely to commit those particular crimes. Preventative detention is not a set-and-forget sentence, it requires ongoing intervention by the state, and if it’s such an abhorrent idea that the state decides someone poses a continued risk to society, let’s just do away with the concept of parole entirely and require prisoners to complete the entire sentence before release.
The incidence of prisoners who are serving sentences of preventative detention is, from what was posted earlier, on the order of 1/320. It’s not something that the courts are throwing around wildly.
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Moz, in reply to
You are awfully confused about preventative detention, it seems. It's not a sentencing option for murder ... And one could be facing preventative detention before the age of 20, assuming a conviction for some form of culpable homicide before the age of 17.
Forgive me for chopping out much of your post, but that doesn't make sense to me. Is there some legal subtlety that makes murder so distinct from "culpable homicide" that it's impossible to commit the latter just by beating children to death?
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nzlemming, in reply to
So you’re making the basically the point I was getting at, but was too lazy to expand upon.
I kinda figured that after I posted ;-)
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Moz, in reply to
You mean when it was all those defined as citizens that were allowed to vote and who gladly resorted to poison and assassination if the vote went against their personal wishes all the while happily using the non-citizens as slaves.
That is pretty much what I was alluding to. Or the more recent enthusiasm for women and children being treated as property while the franchise was extended to more adult men. I believe that for a while Maori women landowners were allowed to vote while white women were not so privileged. That was quickly corrected, possibly before any of them actually got to vote. But also without the nastiness around aboriginal men being granted the vote in Australia around the time of federation.
I'm not sure my depth of cynicism about "rah rah democracy" came through in the previous post.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
Is there some legal subtlety that makes murder so distinct from “culpable homicide” that it’s impossible to commit the latter just by beating children to death?
Murder is a form of culpable homicide, along with manslaughter, and distinct from infanticide where there is accepted to be a “disturbance of the mind” which moderates (or completely negates) the culpability. There is no offence of "culpable homicide", merely a set of facts which lead to murder: did it and meant it; or manslaughter: did it but didn't mean to do it; or infanticide: did it but was affected by childbearing/childbirth/childrearing so wasn't of right mind. Beating one’s children to death would tend to be murder or infanticide, depending on the circumstantial niceties, though I suppose one might accidentally beat them to death and thus be convicted of manslaughter; juries tend not to deliver that verdict too much in such cases, however.
What one would not expect to find is that one beat one’s children to death more than once but was only convicted of manslaughter the second time around. Your ridiculous, convoluted scenario really doesn’t withstand any scrutiny whatsoever.
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Moz, in reply to
What one would not expect to find is that one beat one’s children to death more than once but was only convicted of manslaughter the second time around. Your ridiculous, convoluted scenario really doesn’t withstand any scrutiny whatsoever.
You'll note that I have not used any of the legal jargon terms, because I have little to no knowledge of what they mean. I have never suggested, as you say, that "one beat one’s children to death more than once but was only convicted of manslaughter". You have put words into my mouth, labelled them ridiculous, then dismissed my argument.
Classic lawyer move, and an example of why lawyers rate with politicians in public esteem.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
No, I'm not a lawyer, or even the holder of an LLB.
In positing a construct with a legal outcome, not knowing the law meant your scenario looked ridiculous and withstood no scrutiny. You don't know what preventative detention is used for or how it operates, but you're against it. You don't know the difference between murder and manslaughter. You concocted a bizarre psychopathic parent who would somehow manage to kill their children three separate times before finally being sentenced to preventative detention, clearly without having the slightest understanding of the law that applies to unlawful death; particularly the law that applies to the unlawful death of children.
Don't shoot the messenger. You've been furnished with all the necessary links to read the legislation. Educate yourself. -
Can I just point out that the term is preventive detention, not preventative, despite what you will hear on the radio or tv?
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
the term is preventive detention
Fair cop. I even knew that.
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