Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Postmodern Banks Anxiety

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  • Rich Lock,

    nice of you to ignore the Catholics who were persecuted, tortured and murdered for resisting the Third Reich.

    And there were quite a few more of them than most people realise. Or perhaps care to realise, for those who love to paint these things in nice shades of black and white.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    And there were quite a few more of them than most people realise. Or perhaps care to realise, for those who love to paint these things in nice shades of black and white.

    Venn diagrams to the rescue. Largely the second one.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    nice of you to ignore the Catholics who were persecuted, tortured and murdered for resisting the Third Reich.

    And there were quite a few more of them than most people realise. Or perhaps care to realise, for those who love to paint these things in nice shades of black and white.

    Seems fair then to note this quote from one of Hitler's speeches in 1933:

    "Without pledging ourselves to any particular Confession, we have restored faith to its pre-requisites because we were convinced that the people needs [sic] and requires [sic] this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

    I daresay a few non-believers were harmed in the making of that one.

    I'm still more annoyed by Ratzinger's inflammatory decision to link atheism and the Holocaust in his first speech on British soil than I am by Dawkins' response.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22747 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    That second venn makes no sense. Overlapping circles share both qualities, in this case good and bad. And including the entirety of Nazis in a circle called "good people" is just wrong.

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Anyway, short version of the Wikipedia article on Religion in Nazi Germany: It's complicated

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22747 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX,

    This wee quote could apply to Ratzinger, Roy or Rodney.

    “He who sups with the devil should draw a long spoon - What tell'st thou me of supping?” - Shakespeare Comedy of Errors.

    Ratzinger gives new meaning to, ‘I just don’t give a ratz”. People getting serious about religion don’t get the joke.

    The “fake” twitter accounts, for Banksie, Clarksie and others don’t hold a candle to the belly laugh that was Burton’s Diary as published in the NBR or the unscripted comedy of errors being the Act Party implosion – should that be the Party Act implosion.

    Heather Roy, in opposition, published a diary on the Act site, with Act gone for a Burton I wonder if she will bring it back.

    Off to do all those 20th of the month thangs.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    I'm still more annoyed by Ratzinger's inflammatory decision to link atheism and the Holocaust in his first speech on British soil than I am by Dawkins' response.

    The phrase "unspeakable crimes" didn't exactly go down well either.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic,

    It's pretty appalling too that far too many media outlets have been sucked in and believe that Jim Anderton actually said "Only an earthquake could stop me from winning".

    The Listener ran it in Jane Clifton's page last week, others ran it as well.

    However, as RNZ's Media Watch pointed out yesterday, Anderton was actually discussing his leaving the Labour Party in the late '80s and the quote was selctively edited to make it seem as if he was talking about the Chch earthquake.

    If I was him, I'd be seeking apologies from those who printed and broadcast it.

    Does Kerre really mean it?

    Political mashups are one thing. Attempting to pass them off as fact is quite another.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5415 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Looks like this one's hotting up.

    Catholic League president Bill Donohue gets a bit too effing cute in this column:

    The pope did not go far enough. Radical atheists like the British Humanist Association should apologize for Hitler. But they should not stop there. They also need to issue an apology for the 67 million innocent men, women and children murdered under Stalin, and the 77 million innocent Chinese killed by Mao. Hitler, Stalin and Mao were all driven by a radical atheism, a militant and fundamentally dogmatic brand of secular extremism. It was this anti-religious impulse that allowed them to become mass murderers. By contrast, a grand total of 1,394 were killed during the 250 years of the Inquisition, most all of whom were murdered by secular authorities.

    Why should atheists today apologize for the crimes of others? At one level, it makes no sense: apologies should only be given by the guilty. But on the other hand, since the fanatically anti-Catholic secularists in Britain, and elsewhere, demand that the pope—who is entirely innocent of any misconduct—apologize for the sins of others, let the atheists take some of their own medicine and start apologizing for all the crimes committed in their name. It might prove alembic.

    Except Ratzinger is not "entirely innocent of any misconduct". As last week's BBC Panorama programme, What the Pope Knew, demonstrated, there is good evidence that Ratzinger left child-rapists in place (or at the very least, delayed their removal for years and kept them from the police) for what he took to be the greater good of the church.

    I would like to see Donohue say this to the faces of some of the people in that programme. I'm actually feeling quite angry now.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22747 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Surely the context of this particular pope's role in enabling persistent rape by priests is part of Dawkins' outrage over these current lies about Nazism.

    They're just more of the same defensive mindset grounded in centuries of abuse of power. All Catholics should be insisting that change or at least be a bit less precious when others call their church out for its behaviour.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    I would like to see Donohue say this to the faces of some of the people in that programme. I'm actually feeling quite angry now.

    I probably spend way too much time following Donohue's fragrant out-gassings, but he long ago jumped the shark from hack apologetics to outright sociopathy long ago.

    And you don't have to be a dedicated Vatican watcher, to realise that it's beyond credibility that Cardinal Archbishop Ratizinger -- who was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and Dean of the College of Cardinals for over thirty years before becoming Pope -- could plausibly plead ignorance. He was not entirely affectionately known as 'God's Rottweiler' for a reason.

    They're just more of the same defensive mindset grounded in centuries of abuse of power. All Catholics should be insisting that change or at least be a bit less precious when others call their church out for its behaviour.

    Precious? Perhaps you'd man-splain to me what the fuck Dawkins has done for abuse victims lately - if ever. Perhaps they deserve a little better than being pawns in Ratty and Ricky's nauseating little Godwin-worthy slap fight.

    It would also be nice if Catholics who've been calling out this shit for decades (and been comprehensively trashed for their troubles) had gotten 1% of the media attention Richard Dawkins does.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Slagging atheism makes attention easier to get for one of its high priests. Always hard to get decent coverage of the grey work rather than the lightning and thunder of the fringes.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Courtney Lambert talks about local coverage of the papal visit.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    That second venn makes no sense. Overlapping circles share both qualities, in this case good and bad. And including the entirety of Nazis in a circle called "good people" is just wrong.

    I could see an argument for 'good people' and 'bad people' overlapping, if it's taken to mean "people are sometimes good and sometimes bad, very rarely is a person a complete saint or a complete sinner".

    Having all Nazis inside the good circle is hard work however.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    the people needs [ sic] and
    requires [ sic] this faith

    How did Hitler manage
    to make grammar errors in German that survived translation?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • HORansome,

    Although I'm loath to quote the Huffington Post (given its startling support for pseudoscience), this article on debates between atheists and theists is just the bee's knees.

    Tāmaki Makaurau • Since Sep 2008 • 441 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Although I'm loath to quote the Huffington Post (given its startling support for pseudoscience), this article on debates between atheists and theists is just the bee's knees.

    Sorta. He sets up a pretty big straw man in the second paragraph there.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22747 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    That's not just a pretty big straw man - it is a classic example of how not to conduct an argument...

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • LegBreak,

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1162 posts Report Reply

  • HORansome,

    Really? From the material I've read, and the debates I've been to (and friends I've listened to ad nauseam) that second paragraph actually does describe a lot of what is going on in the New Atheism (especially Hitchins and Dawkins, who are amongst the loudest atheists). I realise that's anecdotal evidence, but, well, most of my colleagues would agree, and we are the peer group, when it comes to the Philosophy of Religion, that theists and atheists need to convince.

    Tāmaki Makaurau • Since Sep 2008 • 441 posts Report Reply

  • HORansome,

    That sounds really pretentious, I do realise.

    Tāmaki Makaurau • Since Sep 2008 • 441 posts Report Reply

  • Peter Martin,

    What the Pope Knew, demonstrated, there is good evidence that Ratzinger left child-rapists in place (or at the very least, delayed their removal for years and kept them from the police) for what he took to be the greater good of the church.

    Which is perhaps what has galvanised such animosity towards the Pope and the Church in general.

    And in the specific :

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 187 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    God: The thread swallower. God and Hitler together? God wins.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10631 posts Report Reply

  • Gordon Paynter,

    Aaron appears to have dynamited his blog. Whither now those of us who wanted to re-read the epic saga of how he won back the Auckland mayoralty for Banks?

    Never fear, we collected it, though the NDHA access module is being upgraded, and it looks like you can't view the archived copies right now (should be back in action by Wednesday).

    The National Library has copies of three different blogs by Aaron Bhatnagar taken at different times between 2007 and 2010. Search on find.natlib.govt.nz for details.

    Gordon

    Wellington • Since Dec 2007 • 21 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    God and Hitler together? God wins.

    Only if no one introduces Chuck Norris..

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

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