Hard News: Te Qaeda and the God Squad
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3410,
Maybe a leopard can change his spots?
Oh, a leapard can change it's spots, all right, just very rarely in that direction. WOW!, indeed. That was one of the classic interviews of the year.
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From Scoop the CHCH protest.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0710/S00339.htm
I find the dozen or so National Front counter protest interesting. Although a bit hard to make out they don't seem to be the black shirted & otherwise clean cut crew who joined (more gate crashed than invited) the Engineers Union protest for 4 weeks annual leave outside of the National Party conference a year ago.
I hope that means their members are falling away.
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Interesting post, that.
"Led by Christchurch identity Sugra the Juggler, dressed in bright orange and riding a unicycle, ..."
Honestly, the impulse certain people have for turning demonstrations into their own personal carnival and performance art venue is so counter-productive. How can you expect to be taken seriously when your protest looks like a 3rd rate circus procession?
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I'd forgotten that Broad was the wingnut who saw demons at work in the Christchurch Creche.
A lot of people are happy to drag that old chestnut out now that he's the Commissioner. Broad's role in that case wasn't massive, and he was a senior officer. One of the things you'd expect senior officers to do in a case is support the work of their underlings.
It's very well to sit in 2007 and point out how that was a mistake, but fifteen years ago, as Lynley Hood herself points out, there was a sort of hysteria about these sorts of creches, and a lot of people who now believe Peter Ellis is innocent, probably believed a bunch of the mumbo jumbo that was coming out at the time.
Howard Broad is an intelligent, educated police officer. People who have worked with him will tell you that he's very progressive on issues of Maori sovereignty and police working with Maori in the community.
That vist was cancelled months ago. The threat can only be considered credible if it occured before that, so why are they acting on it only now?
The inside word I got over the weekend was that the Commissioner had decided to act because 'issues had come to a head'. I presume they believed that something was going to be done soon.
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Could everyone who has the inside word please dump it here? It seems as though there are an awful lot of you.
For one thing, I'd like to know whether it's the same word...
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Honestly, the impulse certain people have for turning demonstrations into their own personal carnival and performance art venue is so counter-productive. How can you expect to be taken seriously when your protest looks like a 3rd rate circus procession?
They do it because they can. After his immersion in the cosmopolitan ways of Central Europe, even Ross Meurant would seem to believe that batoning the clowns back in '81 was a bad idea.
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Could everyone who has the inside word please dump it here? It seems as though there are an awful lot of you.
My knowledge didn't go far past the fact that there were discussions about assassinating Key amongst some of the people arrested in Auckland, but the SST aired that yesterday. The gossip seems to have been about that, so perhaps something was said that made the cops think it was time to wade in -- but that, I hasten to add, is pure speculation.
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Howard Broad is an intelligent, educated police officer. People who have worked with him will tell you that he's very progressive on issues of Maori sovereignty and police working with Maori in the community.
Back that up with a fraction of the meticulous research and dispassionately persuasive writing that Lynley Hood has displayed and you might have a case.
Once the police have made theirs hopefully we'll have a clearer outcome re. Iti et.al. than is the case for Peter Ellis. As Hood has said, it's pretty much down to a case of "chuck Peter Ellis in the village pond and see whether he sinks or floats."
http://www.critic.co.nz/archive?type_code=a&page=46&archive_id=1200 -
Could everyone who has the inside word please dump it here? It seems as though there are an awful lot of you.
For one thing, I'd like to know whether it's the same word...
Well I guess that we are not privileged insiders. Who knows when we will get any information. A still feel a bit haunted that people were photographed in front of their cars holding up numbers.
Right now we have the most potentially divisive situation since 1981, with no indication of when justice will be done, and the government legally distanced from so much as commenting on events.
That is about the size of it. I appreciated reading what Graeme Edgeler had to say. Especially about search warrants, I didn't know any of that. But where are people supposed to get their information from? People like myself who don't have extensive legal background. There doesn't seem to be any timeframe being given about when we will know anything. I wonder if most people in the wider community will stop caring because it just concerns "marginal/radical people".
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Back that up with a fraction of the meticulous research and dispassionately persuasive writing that Lynley Hood has displayed and you might have a case.
Having read Hood's book (and I haven't read any comprehensive arguments from the other side, I'm not sure if there are any), I have no doubt that the Christchurch Creche case was a shambles and Peter Ellis didn't deserve to be convicted. However, it's a tenuous link from that to Howard Broad being a bad Commissioner of Police, and an incredibly stretched one to say that the fuckups over the Peter Ellis case mean that no one's guilty up in Tuhoe country.
I don't have meticulous research. I worked for Howard Broad in the 1990s. I'm related to his ex-boss.
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I don't have meticulous research. I worked for Howard Broad in the 1990s. I'm related to his ex-boss.
And as you're prepared to post that under your own name, respect for that.
I'm certainly not equating Peter Ellis's having been exonerated in the court of public opinion with Iti's case. The accounts by those who claim to know Iti are far too polarised to form any prejudgement. What I'll reiterate, at the risk of repeating myself, is that I believe that Hood's publicly-stated misgivings about Broad are well-founded, in light of his having failed to distance himself from those disastrous aspects of the Ellis case in which he was involved. -
3410,
That visit was cancelled months ago. The threat can only be considered credible if it occured before that, so why are they acting on it only now?
The inside word I got over the weekend was that the Commissioner had decided to act because 'issues had come to a head'.
Really, that doesn't address my question at all.
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Really, that doesn't address my question at all.
Clearly any threat to harm George Bush has little meaning now that he's not coming here.
Presumably they moved because of some other threat or danger. Exactly what that is, we'll no doubt find out at some stage.
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My knowledge didn't go far past the fact that there were discussions about assassinating Key amongst some of the people arrested in Auckland, but the SST aired that yesterday. The gossip seems to have been about that, so perhaps something was said that made the cops think it was time to wade in
jesus... this thread is a marathon. i haven't time to read it all.
but.
<not a terroist>if you wanted to assassinate a new zealand politician, why in the hell would you need a bunch of military weapons?
most pollies are so exposed you could probably take one out with a blunt object during a fundraiser dinner.</not a terrorist>
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3410,
Clearly any threat to harm George Bush has little meaning now that he's not coming here.
Clearly. I'm questioning whether there ever was a credible threat.
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Prebble getting egged & throwing mud at Don Brash were pretty easy politically motivated acts.
I don't trust the magic mud theory - Tame Iti was there a second mud slinger on the grassey ....
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Clearly. I'm questioning whether there ever was a credible threat.
Yeah well that's a fair question. Looking at the article again, it's not exactly definitive on the the threat, where they got this information from etc. The closest they get is:
the Sunday Star-Times has learned police alerted the US after recording threats against President George Bush who was tipped to visit here last month.
They don't seem to provide a source for this information - or even identify which organisation, if any, their source came from.
Looks like a headline they wanted to print, and then had to run a pretty weak story underneath to me.
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if you wanted to assassinate a new zealand politician, why in the hell would you need a bunch of military weapons?
Well, you probably wouldn't, if you're talking about a practical solution to a practical goal.
But if you were a bit of a munter and fancied trying to raise your standing with some munter mates by presenting yourself as a revolutionary then running around in the woods with weapons would probably seem like a better idea than just planning to go whack some dude on the head with a hammer. It's all about the bling, yo... I mean, if you have training camps and IRA manuals then you can feel a bit special, if you just go bash somebody then people might get the wrong impression and think you're a murderer!
It's hard to claim that the extreme activist left doesn't have a bit of a soft spot for revolutionary chic, after all.
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jesus... this thread is a marathon. i haven't time to read it all.
I was going for 500 posts and 15,000 views -- got the latter closing in on the former ...
but.
<not a terroist>if you wanted to assassinate a new zealand politician, why in the hell would you need a bunch of military weapons?
most pollies are so exposed you could probably take one out with a blunt object during a fundraiser dinner.</not a terrorist>Which rather lowers the bar for some nutter, doesn't it? It's one of the nice things about this country that the Prime Minister can actually pop around the corner to the supermarket on her own.
If, as leaks and gossip suggest, some of those involved have been discussing ways and means of killing political leaders, they've gone right past legitimate dissent.
And there is certainly a nutter factor at issue here. The Tuhoe woman the Herald spoke to described the "freedom fighters" as "mad and out there" and the Christchurch activist was "overwhelmed and freaked out" by his experience at one of the camps. Evidence provided to the Dom Post by a defence lawyer indicates the cops have evidence of Tame Iti trying to buy grenade launchers.
I think you were probably on the money when you suggested at the beginning of the thread that someone inside the bubble got scared and talked to the cops.
It might all be bullshit talk, but how far do the cops let it go? Even a bungled assassination attempt would change a lot of things in this country. And can you imagine the shit-storm if there was an attempt on Key and it emerged, as it surely would, that the cops knew something was going on but didn't take it seriously?
I've got no doubt that there's a legitimate police interest in what's been going on, and still no opinion on whether that warrants terrorism charges. Certainly, the police have raised the bar for themselves with their handling of it.
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Even a bungled assassination attempt would change a lot of things in this country.
And it's not like this is completley unheard of here. There were suggestions Christopher Lewis attempted to shoot the Queen in the Octagon in Dunedin in the 1980's.
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I think you were probably on the money when you suggested at the beginning of the thread that someone inside the bubble got scared and talked to the cops.
it was doubtless a very hazy, very smokey, very peaceful bubble.
then some numnut brought along some p.
If, as leaks and gossip suggest, some of those involved have been discussing ways and means of killing political leaders, they've gone right past legitimate dissent.
indeed. why the hell assassinate a leader in a place you can just vote them out?
but referring to the last part of your comment. that would be my only concern about the way the police have acted. if they are drawing legitimate dissenters into this circle, and tarring them with the "terrorism" brush, then we're into a whole nother kind of hazy place.
i'm happy to surrender a modicum of civil rights to ensure collective security. but the second that surrender is abused by zealous security forces, we all need to start becoming concerned.
the invasion of the privacy of those friends of stephen judd's, for example.
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On RNZ the police seem to be quibbling over bus or van being boarded. Stating it wasn't a bus but not be drawn on if it was a van.
This from MP Flavell
Tell the truth about the Bus says Waiariki MP, Te Ururoa Flavell
Tuesday 23 October 2007Te Ururoa Flavell has today released a letter he has sent to the Minister of Education, asking him to clarify the truth to claims that New Zealand police boarded school buses during their ‘anti-terrorism’ raids on Ruatoki and Taneatua last Monday.
“The claims that the Minister made in the House last Thursday, have been disputed by various members of the affected community, including one of the bus drivers, Issac Nuku” confirmed Mr Flavell.
“It is somewhat ironic that the humble bus which transports our tamariki to kohanga reo and kura kaupapa has become a key player in the raids made against Tuhoe over the last week” said Mr Flavell.
“Activists and peacemakers throughout the world, know of the significance of the Montgomery Bus Boycott which signalled the start of a revolutionary era of non-violent mass protests in support of civil rights in America” said Mr Flavell.
“Issac Nuku, just like Rosa Parks, has refused to go along with a line of truth being promoted, which denies that police or members of the armed defenders squad boarded the bus” said Mr Flavell.
“In the interests of our most vulnerable, our children, we expect the Minister to bother to care about questions such as whether police did or didn’t board buses, whether they were armed or unarmed, whether they were in combat gear and whether they did indeed search the vehicles”.
Attached :letter to Hon Steve Maharey, Minister of Education, 23 October 2007
Questions of 18 October 2007
23 October 2007
Hon Steve Maharey
Minister of Education
PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
Tënä koe SteveLast Thursday 18 October 2007, I made a specific request for clarification that a van belonging to Te Kohanga Reo o Taneatua was “reportedly boarded by an armed defenders squad in full combat gear with guns”. In the response you gave to my questions, you confirmed at four separate occasions, that you could advise that no police boarded the bus.
You will be aware now that there has been considerable dispute in the public arena, about the accuracy of these statements. I enclose a media statement of 19 October 2007 (Driver adamant police searched bus) which confirms that the driver of the kohanga reo bus, Issac Nuku, has stated that “They (police) did hop on our bus and they did search our bus”.
I would like to provide you with the opportunity, under Standing Order 350, to make a personal explanation to the House to clarify whether the responses you gave in the attached transcript were misleading the House or not.
Heoi ano
Te Ururoa FlavellMember of Parliament for Waiariki
3. Māori Education Strategy—Government Agencies
18 October 2007
[Uncorrected transcript—subject to correction and further editing.]
3. TE URUROA FLAVELL (Māori Party—Waiariki) to the Minister of Education: Kua tae atu te tohutohu ki a ia, ko tētahi o ngā tino kaupapa nui kua kitea e ngā whakawhitinga whakaaro mō te kape tuatahi o te Rautaki Mātauranga Māori, arā, a Ka Hikitia, ko“te mahitahi a ngā pokapū Kāwanatanga, ko tā rātau hono hoki, tētahi ki tētahi”, ā, he aha rawa ngā rautaki kua whakaritea kia tino kore ai ngā mahi a ētahi atu tari Kāwanatanga e tukituki i ngā wawata o ērā e whai ana i ngā ara mātauranga?[Has he been advised that consultation on the draft Māori education strategy, Ka Hikitia]
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education) : A call for Government agencies to work together in a more collaborative and connected way is not new, but it is important. That is why it is in *Ka Hikitia. The Ministry of Education regularly works with key education and Government agencies on a wide range of issues. It is certainly my expectation that where the actions of one department will have an impact on another, they will work together to minimise that impact.Te Ururoa Flavell: What advice has the Minister received about the impact of *New Zealand Police actions on *kōhanga reoand *kura located in *Rūātoki *Waimana, Matahi, and *Tāneatua, following the fact that the Rūātoki community was locked down, roads were sealed, and people were isolated during the raids of Monday, 15 October?
Hon STEVE MAHAREY: I am not fully briefed on police operations this week. The member would probably need to direct his question to the Minister of Police to get more detail on what actually took place. But I would like to point out that the police operation was independently initiated by the police. It was a country-wide operation that impacted on a wide range of people from a wide range of backgrounds and circumstances. We are all waiting to see what exactly will arise from the police activities.
With regard to, for example, the alleged boarding of the school bus, which I took some particular interest in, I advise that no police boarded that bus. The bus was facilitated through the *roadblocks where there were armed police. Of course, it impacted on the schools that day, but my understanding is that those schools and kōhanga have gone back to operation as per normal.
Te Ururoa Flavell: What crisis intervention assistance and culturally appropriate trauma counselling will be made available to te kōhanga reoo Tāneatua following the events of 15 October, after its van, full of preschoolers, was stopped three times at three separate roadblocks and reportedly boarded by an *armed offenders squad in full combat gear with guns, leaving the children—the tamariki—extremely distressed, some still too afraid to go to kōhanga reo4 days later because of the fear of the “ninja army”?
Hon STEVE MAHAREY: I think it is really important at this time for cool heads to prevail while we wait to see what will arise from the police investigations. Labelling is probably not the best thing to do at this particular time. I say again that my advice is that police did not board any transport and that children were facilitated through the roadblocks to make sure they moved on their way. In relation to trauma and counselling, the member will be aware that the Ministry of Education moves very swiftly on requests by schools to deal with those issues and to provide counsellors and support. It will do so in this case as soon as it is invited to.
Te Ururoa Flavell: Does the Minister agree with the plan for action in Ka Hikitia that recommends that Government agencies working together is one of five factors that can make the most difference for Māori students; if so, what protocols will he recommend to the New Zealand Police to ensure that children are not subjected to police actions that can cause long-lasting trauma?
Hon STEVE MAHAREY: I repeat that we are waiting for the full details of these operations to emerge; therefore, I do not have them. But I am saying that what I am aware of is that the police appear to have made sure they did not board transport or put themselves in those kinds of situations the member is alluding to. We will have to wait for full details to emerge, but that is my understanding. I hope the member will ensure that the information he gets that he makes available in a public platform is accurate information, because, as I said, at this time I think it is very important that cool heads prevail, that we wait for full details, and that we are accurate in what we say.
Te Ururoa Flavell: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I appreciate the information given by the Minister in his answer, but I ask him, through you, whether it is appropriate to address the question with respect to the concerns coming through the constituency, which were about the work that will be done by the New Zealand Police to ensure that the children are not subjected again to any actions. If he could address that part of the question, it would be helpful.
Madam SPEAKER: I thought the Minister did address the question, but if he wants to add any more, then he is perfectly free to do so.
Hon STEVE MAHAREY: I think it is important to clarify exactly where the question needs to go. If the member wants to know about the police, unfortunately he needs to ask a question of the Minister of Police. But as Minister of Education I say that it is, of course, my interest, and I am making sure that I am being kept up to speed with what is going on around young children in our country and in our schools. As I say, if trauma teams are asked for, they go straight in there to assist. I am assured that the police did not board buses; they treated children properly. It will emerge—and I see that the member is not agreeing with me—if the factors are different from that, but that is what I have sought to do. If the member wants to know precisely about the police, then unfortunately he will need to ask the Minister of Police.
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One of the Wellington arrestees has just been released, and on hearing their name (still suppressed) I'm extremely surprised. This person is one of the nicest and most peaceful people I know. I'm not just saying that - I'm sure most people who've met them would say the same.
Personal anecdotes don't make someone innocent, but my level of incredulity towards all of this has just rocketed.
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For goodness sake...
Un(der) educated members of the public frequently make this mistake, but I don't expect it from an MP.
I can assure Mr Flavell that no member of the armed defenders squad did anything at all in his electorate, because no such squad exists.
Its the armed offenders squad.... because, you know, they are going after offenders who are armed...
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Armed offenders squad - no presumption of innocents there.
A name change to armed defenders would be good as it does have that or at least the absence of a presumption of guilt.
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