Hard News: Te Qaeda and the God Squad
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Neil she crossed the line here-
"who at the very least have illicitly used firearms, constructed molotov cocktails and trained themselves in how to use napalm, should not be charged"
The difference being Mallard admitted it - no-one sure as hell has admitted this and she is stating it as fact.
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Last nights news on Maori TV has a bit about a ruckus over rights to forest in Tuhoe country.
It would have total historical significance if the Cullen Fund/Police Retirement Fund/Todd Corp (a tie to Collins)/etc have or will buy the rights to that forest in the near future.
29Oct07 Te Karea online
http://www.maoritelevision.com/programmes/news/te_kaea_online.htm -
Tuhoe forests would also tie in the smelly tree hugging hippies and the economic purpose for the invasion.
Conspiracy Theory complete - now is there any proof to it?
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"who at the very least have illicitly used firearms, constructed molotov cocktails and trained themselves in how to use napalm, should not be charged"
It matches with what the media have been reporting from what little the Police have released, and I would assume as PM she would have access to the full picture - and one must also assume that as PM Helen has carte blanche to release certain information as she see's fit. Moreso if it was under Parliamentary Priveledge (which I don't think this was)
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Andrew correct me if I'm wrong, but do you believe in the omnipotent wisdom of the Police or just Helen?
With such powers surely trials are redundant and sentences must be carried out forthwith. -
Andrew:
Re Rongomai Bailey:
The police opposed bail and were required to indicate the strength of evidence against him. It was a somewhat bizarre legal discussion which followed. It transpired the police had no admissible evidence to justify laying the arms charges. In fact, they had no direct evidence whatever that he had ever even touched a firearm of any sort. What they did have was evidence gained under surveillance which cannot be used as evidence on the arms charges.So here was a person arrested on gun charges but then detained on evidence inadmissible under our gun laws but admissible for denying bail for charges under the gun laws. Confused? I was.
So the police proceeded to spend the next 20 minutes or so reading what they regarded as the juiciest excerpts from the surveillance transcripts. These were obtained by bugging conversations in a car on a couple of road trips.
I'd like to record here the details of these transcripts but that evidence is suppressed. Suffice to say, these conversations were nothing one wouldn't hear on a Saturday afternoon at any gun club around New Zealand – even before the beer comes out.
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Stephen:
Hadn't seen that till now. Far freakin' out.
One always wants to wait to hear what's said in court and, assuming that's an accurate depiction of proceedings, I'm now able to start forming a view. So far, it isn't good.
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in fairness she was responding to the Maori Party's attacks which included a deliberate misrepresentation of how the relationship between the govt and police works. I'm quite happy she took them to task over it.
In fairness, Neil, Clark could have made the point by simply saying again "No Minister in this Government - or any other - directly intervenes in Police operational matters. If Mrs. Turia or Mr. Sharples believe they have any evidence to the contrary, put up or shut up."
She went a bit further than that, and IMO unwisely so - I understand the political imperative (and suspecting she knew exactly what was in the latest Herald-Digipoll published today). Just don't think Clark has her usually formidable sense of self-discipline and judgment is at full strength.
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OTOH, new from Bomber:
I’ve spoken to a lot of people who have seen what the Police have in terms of allegations and everything I hear back suggests it is serious, the manner in which blind support has been whipped up for the Urewera 17 I believe may end up being extremely detrimental to the activist community when the evidence is released, this plays into the hands of right wing reactionaries like Winston Peters, like Michael Laws, like Leighton Smith who will flay the activist community and those who rushed in to support people before they heard what the evidence was.
He also notes the grief he's getting personally, including the imposter posting offensive things under his name in various forums. It's quite an interesting read.
But I wish he'd learn to punctuate.
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Aye.
But: "I’ve spoken to a lot of people who have seen what the Police have in terms of allegations."
Who has seen what they have in terms of evidence? The only report that I know is that one from John Minto I just quoted. (Spotted by the ever-vigilant Idiot/Savant on NRT, by the way, I'm just passing it along).
Bomber has the very valid point, also made by Finn Higgins earlier, that multiple issues are being confused here, and that people are being carried away into promising unconditional support that they may later regret.
At this point, I find the allegations unlikely. If the evidence is produced, I will have to eat my words and direct my ire at a totally different group of people - and I will.
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It's a refrain Bomber's been playing ever since this story broke - 'trust me, thanks to my down-with-the-activists cred I have inside information which I'm not at liberty to reveal' - all the while invoking the bogeyman of talkback/Leighton/Laws - effectively, the kind of people that Bomber is energetically fast-tracking himself into becoming. It's pretty much all about Bomber, and has bugger all to do with the stuff us mortals are largely in the dark about.
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and one must also assume that as PM Helen has carte blanche to release certain information as she see's fit.
She certainly does not - no Prime Minister does. And that's a pretty smart convention when the Prime Minister is privy to an extraordinary range of sensitive information, by virtue of his or her position, that should not be released because it serves their current interests as the parliamentary leader of a political party.
It's also a pretty FUBAR way to defend yourself against charges of political interference in the Police's operational decisions. As I said, Clark usually picks her words with more care. Listening to Checkpoint this evening, she also seems to have had second thoughts - because she was pretty curt in brushing off questions.
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Good old RNZ & Mary Wilson have an audio of Aunty Helen backing her statement last night.
Keith Locke recons shes prejudiced the case due to her inside knowledge - the SIS/Police briefings.
18:45hrs
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint -
It's pretty much all about Bomber, and has bugger all to do with the stuff us mortals are largely in the dark about.
Come on, Joe - one of the nice things about PAS is that (at least most of the time) we genuinely try to engage with each other, and do so in a serious and respectful manner. Yes, Bomber tends to get up my nose - and stay there - but the crap ‘disinfo bomber’ is putting around is truly vile.
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Another nice thing abut PAS is the general lack of self-regarding web-punditry.
If you feel the need to featherbed that kind of thing it's not my problem. Again, should you feel that bomber needs to be cut some slack due to his current troubles, fine. It has next to nothing to do with my post. -
She went a bit further than that, and IMO unwisely so...
technically I agree. But every moron in the Green and Maori parties as well as various self important left wing activists have spouted a lot of very stupid and inflammatory BS on this issue so I’m not about to criticise Clark for putting them in their place.
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And the latest piece of idiocy from Minto -
Letter from John Minto to Chris Trotter
What the f*ck happened to the activist left.
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technically I agree.
No 'technically' about it, in my view. Dumb thing to say, full stop. Just as there's not excuse for Mallard hitting people - and that's where you stop talking.
But every moron in the Green and Maori parties as well as various self important left wing activists have spouted a lot of very stupid and inflammatory BS on this issue so I’m not about to criticise Clark for putting them in their place.
And don't leave out Winston and various other pant-wetters on the right of the political and media spectrum. Sorry for flogging a dead nag here, but RB is right: what the hell was wrong with the default STFU position she'd taken? Another bad poll, and another shitstorm on her own front bench? God, I remember when Clark wasn't so easily rattled.
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Thanks for clarifying that Neil.
So Helen is omnipotent - Great. -
And just to be even handed, I also think it wasn't that smart of John Key to blurt that he'd apparently received a briefing from the SIS. "Technically" he didn't say anything wrong, but it was unhelpful to set all the conspiracy theorists a-twitter.
I suspect, someone is giving Key good advice about when to stop flapping his gums, and even better he's paying attention. From my partisan perspective, this is one very dangerous shit storm National is doing well to avoid. To be honest, I don't think any other party is going to walk away from this without an egg facial or two.
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I'm amazed Clark didn't just stick with the standard "leave the police to do their jobs" line that all politicians should have written on a reference sheet for this kind of occasion.
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So here was a person arrested on gun charges but then detained on evidence inadmissible under our gun laws but admissible for denying bail for charges under the gun laws. Confused? I was.
That's really interesting. The fact that it's written by Minto has me less all over it than if it was written by a journalist, but still...
I'm with Craig on wondering what Helen Clark was on when she started on that napalm and molotov cocktails bent. And on whoever is giving Key good advice to keep his head under the parapet. I suspect the Maori party could do OK out of this, because they police case is looking shaky and they're protecting 'their people', who will reward them for it if it turns out not to be a big terrorist conspiracy, Greens I think are possibly going to lose mainstream non-activist support (possibly through no fault of their own, just through association), and Labour will be spewing if the police case falls over. Winston Peters will... dammit, can people stop electing that moron?
But every moron in the Green and Maori parties as well as various self important left wing activists have spouted a lot of very stupid and inflammatory BS on this issue so I’m not about to criticise Clark for putting them in their place.
I don't have a list of the morons in the above parties, because I'm not a member. But there's a bunch of morons everywhere who have opened their mouth on this, and I've heard a bunch of left-wing activists and members of those parties say some quite reasonable and sensible things on the issue. The Greens for example, have sensibly kept Sue Bradford away from it and put Keith Locke out in front and pushed the issue of the amendments to the TSA.
Personally I can see where Minto was coming from with his letter to Trotter. Chris Trotter seems as much interested these days as keeping his income as a columnist/political commentator/writer etc, rather than actually being left wing.
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I found Minto's accusations against Trotter over Iraq a bit bizarre, and I haven't been able to find anything Trotter wrote backing Blair's sign-up to the war.
A few months before the invasion he certainly didn't seem to be on board with the project.
Meanwhile, from this blog post on the stoush, an amazing Indymedia link.
Truly. Barking. Mad.
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Meanwhile, from this blog post on the stoush, an amazing Indymedia link.
Truly. Barking. Mad.
If the person wasn't arguing so hard you'd think they were just drunk and having some fun.
Apparently they're just not sane enough to be allowed on the internet.
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So Helen is omnipotent - Great.
Maybe she should cut back on the Viagra?
(aw c'mon, don't hate me - that joke wrote itself!)
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