Hard News: The March for Democracy
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I think this march has shown us the best thing John Key has done since entering Parliament and becoming PM. Nothing.
Now now Sofie: he's supported the boys in black all over the world, what more could we ask for than an avid rugby man.
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I think this march has shown us the best thing John Key has done since entering Parliament and becoming PM. Nothing.
Indeed, they had nothing to protest against, so they did.
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Mark:
But things could be much much worse.I don't feel the marchers represented anything much at all other than expressing their freedom to protest, an inherently democratic privilege.
In this case, don't you mean the freedom to make a complete dick of oneself? There's a dividing line somewhere.
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I have a PAS crowd-sourcing project in mind, too, but apparently it's quite hard to get one's hands on the book in question at the moment.
The three bookshops I've been in during the past week all had ample supplies. I toyed with buying one, in case they become a collectors item in time, but I'm not seeing the scarcity. So if you're in Borders in Riccarton Mall, Chch; or either bookshop in Chartwell Square, Hamilton, you're set.
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If one listens to talk back radio (daytime) we are all racists, with sex problems, bad backs, we like to kill weeds and moss in our spare time, most of us are on some form of welfare, we expect everyone else to pay everything and we don’t like each other.
I took my 2 1/2 year old into town on Saturday to ride at the Sky City Cinemas the space ship lift and escalators and then buy a Barbie DVD. On the way out we came across the guy in the Nazi uniform and his placard wielding clan and it pissed me off because even though I hadn’t seen or heard what he was up to I guessed and it turned out my guess was right. He was wrong on so many levels and insulting to many people - it was not a joke.
The march, the recent behaviour of elected representatives Hone and Rodney, the way the Emissions Trading scheme is being passed under urgency and so many other things highlight to me that as a whole the nation of NZ just doesn’t get on, particularly in political and public life. There is a lack of discussion and openness.
I thought it was great that just below the march Mike Treen from Unite was promoting a petition for a lift in the minimum wage to $15.00 an hour.
Barbie makes more sense than the marchers; she is right up there with Mike Treen trying to do the right thing the right way.
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an inherently democratic privilege.
Yes, but ignorance is no defence, so calling it is well within the rules of necessary behaviour, no? Those who joined in to highlight this fact deserves the gold star today. :)
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In this case, don't you mean the freedom to make a complete dick of oneself? There's a dividing line somewhere.
There is, and dick is apt. I do mean that, almost, except that in some bizarre way,these cretins are doing their bit to keep democracy alive(in their own impish way). And their dickishness stands testament to one of the great tennents of democracy, that being, that dicks will be tolerated and allowed to spout whatever jism cometh into their heads. Whilst marching.
so calling it is well within the rules of necessary behaviour, no?
hell yes. There is of course the danger of marginalizing the dick too much.....but as far as i can see, they're still standing proud..ok i'll stop.
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"Spoil the rod, Spare the child" seems more fitting.
The "911 was an inside job" sign gave me pause to think:
You'se guys in Orkland had a good time checking out the march. Was it something in the weekend's air that attracted nutters into the streets..... and museums.
Kim Hill gave better than she got on saturday to the 911 freak.
Then on sat afternoon there was a free talk by the same kook that attracted a sellout crowd down here. Overflowing into the cafe floor as well.I think those who would've gone marching probably went to the talk???
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undercutting ;)
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"The harnessing of grievance for its own sake is not exclusive to the political Right (if, indeed, that's how this march can be characterised): it was the keynote to the (much bigger and getter organised) anti-capitalist marches in the late 90s – which saw third-world activists and North American unionists march shoulder-to-shoulder with their profoundly incompatible demands on trade policy."
I really don't understand how the demands of largely industrial workers from the Global North working with largely agricultural-based farmers organisations are profoundly incompatible. The key concern was the neo-liberal agenda whether that was IMF heavying your local economy to cut social programmes or the large-scale outsourcing of jobs in the North. A lot of the union solidarity was also built on raising awareness around the nature of working conditions in the global south i.e. sweatshops and maquiladoras. They had far more in common than they had differences.
The real keynote in terms of the Seattle protests among others was that it was one of the first times people in the Global North picked up the concerns of the South along with their own.The neo-liberal agenda in most peoples understanding caused pain and struggle around the world, in the 1990s. Even neo-liberals generally agreed that this was so, while stating that such market 'corrections' were necessary. I think it's really unfair to mismatch a complex yet far more coherent movement that I think many would agree was driven by a genuine sense of solidarity, and desire to change the current system with a mish-mash of campaigns that are largely against giving other people rights i.e. the introduction of civil unions and repealing Section 59.
What took the wind out of the sails of the anti-globalisation movement was largely 9/11. On the one hand it made organising increasingly difficult and various countries began using anti-terror legislation to bully, individuals groups and gatherings, and on the other as Bush Jnr and his cabal pissed away the mandate given by the public of the US, far greater focus went on anti-war organising.
From my own experience - the single-issue campaigners, biblical-types, conspiracy theorists, and mentally unwell (by no means a comprehensive list, but a good indication) will start turning up after you have your first medium-sized or greater 'success' in the public arena. What was happening on Saturday was to some degree this . In terms of post-October 15th, the above hit Aotearoa Indymedia with a vengeance – although I'm not sure I'd call it a success either.
"The anti-GE movement (which in 2003 managed marches thrice bigger than Saturday's) was undermined by the active presence of the likes of Jonathan Eisen, whose paranoid style is essentially incompatible with civil progress."
While he may have been undermining, but the key undermining factor was that the moderate Green organisations came to terms with the introduction with GE into their countries, and the radical wing moved on. In New Zealand, the Green Party decided not to do anything particular about the moratorium ending other than continue to increase their standing via the ballot box - and a pragmatist would argue there was really sod all else they could do. To my mind, in this country at least the GE movement ground to halt largely because of this key compromise, rather than some individual personalities.
"The grand promise of the global anti-capitalist craze wound up in some of the weird, scary stuff you can find on Indymedia these days."
I agree that the comments on Indymedia can suck almost as bad as comments on Youtube. I would point out that Aotearoa Indymedia now has policies against racism and other forms of discrimination.
However when you look at what is reported there the movement that inspired Indymedia is still going on. Reporting on human-rights in Honduras or climate-change activism in Europe is a bit more than whatever 'weird' and 'scary' comments you might find here and there.
Overall the parallels you tried to draw seemed to be so cartoon-like and inaccurate that they were worse than useless.
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In New Zealand, it is illegal to inflict violence on animals. So are children a lower form of life, sort of 'homo whack'ems'?
Why is it so many people have so great a misunderstanding about the legal protections we offer animals in this country?
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A steak offers incentive to misunderstand its origins.
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So are children a lower form of life, sort of 'homo whack'ems'?
Sue Bradford bought in a bill that had so much support from the social coalface...childrens agencies, police etc that its impossible to review it in a civic sense and conclude anything other than it's a fucking good idea.
John Key has lead the country incredibly well on this issue.
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I really don't understand how the demands of largely industrial workers from the Global North working with largely agricultural-based farmers organisations are profoundly incompatible.
The main union present at the Seattle protests were the steelworkers and what they wanted was trade protection against producers in less wealthy countries like Brazil and Russia. The US government has repeatedly flouted its WTO obligations in that industry -- something like half the cases brought to the WTO (often by developing countries) have been about steel protectionism. Big, dirty rust belt mills in America have been propped up at the expense of smaller, cleaner mills in the developing world -- and the people who work in them.
I'm more inclined toward the view of Oxfam, which sees fair access to markets as crucial for developing countries. I know the protests were in part against such a rules-based system, but I believe that was wrong.
This 2003 essay by Johann Hari takes a similar view:.
And the protesters need to define their cause more sharply. This will mean that some individuals who have, disgracefully, been lauded by the movement will have to be renounced. Look, for example, at Jose Bove, the Poujadist French farmer who was acclaimed after he dismantled a McDonald's restaurant to cheers from the movement. He now happily puffs his pipe in Porto Alegre as he militantly defends French agricultural subsidies.
Yet it is these very hand-outs from the EU (and the US's fat farming subsidies, too) that are crippling Africa.Every cow in Europe receives from Western taxpayers moremoney than each African woman- and Bove wants the cows to be given more. In the West, we spend $ 1bn a day on agricultural subsidies. This is $ 1bn that cannot be earned by Africa's desperate fledgling farmers. If subsidies were reduced by just 1 per cent, Oxfam has shown that Africa could immediately earn from farming seven times the sum that the world currently gives them in aid.
If the anti-globalisation movement is to have any intellectual coherence, it must decide between greedy protectionists like Bove and those living in abject poverty in Africa: their interests are diametrically opposed. To offer both Bove's acolytes and Africa's farmers warm applause and generous words on this, one of the most urgent moral issues on earth, is simply dishonest.
And also:
The anti-globalisation movement remains too often trapped in an easy oppositional mindset, ranting against all governments and all existing models of human organisation. It is just silly to rage against "capitalism" as the source of all the world's evils.
The teabaggers hate the WTO too, because it's associated with the UN, and one of their greatest fears is global rule. While many of the anti-capitalist protesters were/are principled and informed (and the Tea Party people are often simply paranoid and angry) I think there's also a shared sort of nihilism there.
I wrote very positively at the time about Indymedia -- distributed media for a distributed movement -- but it got depressing visiting Indymedia sites. Too much anti-semitism, too many crazy people.
And re the anti-GE movement, you're doubtless better-informed than me, but I have spoken to people who found it emotionally intense and people like Eisen, who has the boundless energy of the zealot, a strong and unwelcome influence. People who seemed glad to have stopped doing it.
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I've had the same experience.
I've had the truly bizarre experience of explaining to someone smart enough to know better that her claim National must have voted against it, because everyone knows that those Tory bastards are in the pocket of the "religious right". Massive reality fail on so many levels, I had to repair to the verandah for some calming passive smoking. Seriously, if I wanted to deal with delusional folks I'd get into psych nursing and at least get (badly) paid for it.
I wrote very positively at the time about Indymedia -- distributed media for a distributed movement -- but it got depressing visiting Indymedia sites. Too much anti-semitism, too many crazy people.
Indeed -- and the worse thing about it is that no matter how much you bitch and whinge about it, you do get judged by the company you keep. If you don't have the wit to isolate and shun casual Jew-baiters, then pardon me if I come to the conclusion that you don't really have any problems with what they're saying. It may be my error, but not an unreasonable one.
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if I wanted to deal with delusional folks I'd get into psych nursing
I recommend politics
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casual Jew-baiters
All very Rodd and Gunn..
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@ Jeremy
John Key has lead the country incredibly well on this issue.
He also profited politically from the very widespread (but entirely mistaken) impression that he and his minions opposed the bill.
The private member's bill with which Labour was so badly tarred.
The blinkers are only now beginning to fall off the populace.
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Colin Craig is a man of principle. He invested his own money to march against the left wing minority vocalists like Russell Brown & Co who are determined that their minority ill informed judgments rule the day.
Russell & Co still cant accept that the majority of folks in this country don't support their views.
Just reading through the diatribe presented here in this blog its centered around supporting a minority view.
Rule by the minority is being promoted by Russell & Co in this blog .
An unhealthy determination.Garth McVicar is one of the most respected people in NZ & his work with the Sensible Sentencing Trust has achieved a lot for ALL New Zealanders in tackling crime..If you ask most of the victims of crime in this country about SST , they know the work of Garth & his team has been invaluable.
Russell in denigrating a great man like Garth McVicar only denigrates himself . -
He invested his own money to march against the left wing minority vocalists like Russell Brown & Co who are determined that their minority ill informed judgments rule the day.
He spent up to $100/head to get 4000 people on Queen Street, a not insignificant minority of whom were actually counter-protesters.
He's not marching against a left-wing minority, but the decision of the previous House of Representatives to amend a law, by a vote of 113 to 8. Those in favour included every National MP, every Labour MP, every Green MP, every Maori Party MP, more than half of NZ First's MPs, and that well-known left winger Peter Dunne.
The current House of Representatives, dominated by right wingers of various stripes, has shown very little interest in changing the law.
Rule by the minority is being promoted by Russell & Co in this blog .
An unhealthy determination.I suggest you familiarize yourself with the notion of Parliamentary democracy.
The previous Parliament heard a full spectrum of opinions on the issue and decided to amend the previous law. The new Parliament continues to satisfied with the amended law, and a majority are not convinced by the result of a referendum with a poorly-worded and leading question.
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Russell in denigrating a great man like Garth McVicar only denigrates himself
The former has a range of interesting and considered opinions on a wide range of contemporary issues. The latter is a tedious rent-a-quote, whose public utterances are a variation on one theme: "Tougher penalties for crimes I don't like."
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Kim Hill Jong?
Kim Hill gave better than she got on saturday to the 911 freak.
Kim did give a great example of what a closed (and small) mind can do to commonsense... all the poor guy (Richard Gage) was doing was trying to get some questions asked - like a proper investigation - and Kim was all Fox News in the Hen House on him - he never said he had answers, he just said there were questions still unanswered .... whereas she let Rod Carr witter weasel words with out comment...
- Not Kim Hill's finest moment... in fact she was damn rude... I haven't given up on her completely yet, but I'm damn close... -
Not Kim Hill's finest moment... in fact she was damn rude... I haven't given up on her completely yet, but I'm damn close...
Hear hear.. she's fallen as far as to be simply comedic value in this house. Get her out of there...
By comparison Richard Gage must have thought he'd died and gone to heaven when he was interviewed on Active89 in Wellington yesterday morning by two "rank amateurs*" Liam Luff and Red Bird, who asked well-researched questions, gave him a chance to talk, and stopped him from drifting/ranting. Was a fascinating chat.
* Possibly technically not actually amateur, but in context...
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In my experience "I'm just asking questions" is a classic conspiracy theory ploy. The person who says that generally just doesn't like the accepted answers, and is counting on the audience being ignorant of them or the evidence that supports them.
I did not hear the interview, but based on what Giovanni writes here, I'm annoyed Gage was lent the credibility of appearing on National Radio at all. Now he can say he's lectured at Te Papa and been interviewed on National Radio and seem just that bit more serious.
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In my experience "I'm just asking questions" is a classic conspiracy theory ploy. The person who says that generally just doesn't like the accepted answers, and is counting on the audience being ignorant of them or the evidence that supports them.
The problem with Gage's theory is that it implies a conspiracy involving a huge number of people -- from those who supposedly planted the explosives in the the buildings in advance of the planes striking them (and then detonated them in perfect time) to the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the city administration of New York.
And for what? Did the way the buildings collapsed really add meaningfully to the grotesque offence of the attacks? Wouldn't the slamming of the planes into the buildings have been sufficient for whatever dark purpose the plotters had?
But I won't go on. Giovanni's post is better than anything I could write.
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