Hard News: The newest neocon catastrophe
176 Responses
First ←Older Page 1 … 3 4 5 6 7 8 Newer→ Last
-
I'd love to learn what guides these virtual flash mobs.
In Russia, the internet browses you.
-
Hmmm. Thinks of the earlier meaning of 'browse' = to graze or nibble upon. Hmmm.
-
Funny, or rather sad, how these days the first response of many to anything bad that happens in the world is a reflexive "neocon, neocon, wah wah wah!!"
What has happened in Georgia is a balls up of spectacular proportions, but it is hard to see that it has much to do with neocons, for the reason that there are almost none in the administration anymore, and haven't been for a while.
Condi Rice has been very firmly in charge of US foreign policy these last four years and her actions, or inactions on many occasions, have hardly smacked of neocon impulses. Iran marches merrily toward a nuke crossing so many "red lines" and its more talk, talk talk. North Korea tried to detonate a nuke and is caught red handed proliferating Nuke technology to Syria and its "heh, no problem, let’s keep talking about our agreement!!" Hard to how a Kerry administration would have been much different in this regard (except handing Iraq to Al Qaeda and Iran’s Shia militias).
This article seems a fair analysis:
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=9da1fd2d-1701-470b-b734-3fc365571e0d
The ire of the world should be directed at Russia, not the US or Georgia or neocons. It has been obvious for a number of years the direction Putin was taking Russia, squashing dissent at home, rebuilding its military with the objective of throwing its weight around globally, but especially in their "near abroad", once more. The US being fully occupied in Afghanistan and Iraq suited Russia very well. And over the last year or so Russia has socked away billions in additional oil revenues which has emboldened them further (all the more reason to drill for oil in the US and drop the price of oil and stop enriching so many vile regimes, including the Saudis).
The Russians were pissed about Kosovo and Georgia was the obvious place they were going to make a statement. How Georgia and the US screwed up and gave the Russians the excuse for which they were looking will rightly be the subject of much analysis in the near future.
Bush screwed up mightily by trying to be all matey, matey with Putin to bring him and Russia into the modern world, while all the time Putin had very different ideas. Putin must be relishing the thought of President Barry Obambi, whose knowledge and thoughts on international policy make a helium balloon look substantive by comparison. Terrible time to be an Eastern European with Prince Barry the Vacuous in office. Putin will have a virtually free reign. The Euros, spineless as they are anyway, wont do anything or Vlad will turn off their gas in winter. Nice lad, that Vlad.
Anytime the world becomes less free, as it has in this situation, it is something to be regretted and hopefully reversed and whomever or whatever made the world less free should be the automatic object of opprobrium. Anytime the world becomes freer, and more people gain some or all of the freedoms that readers of PAS enjoy, it is something to be celebrated. And that is the way to view this situation. Not, "neocon, neocon, wah, wah, wah!!"
-
What has happened in Georgia is a balls up of spectacular proportions, but it is hard to see that it has much to do with neocons, for the reason that there are almost none in the administration anymore, and haven't been for a while.
Ummm, James? First paragraph of the blog entry that this discussion is attached to:
Something you might not know about the short, sickening conflict in Georgia: John McCain, who yesterday declared "we are all Georgians", is being advised by Randy Scheunemann, a neocon who, until March was registered with the US justice Department as "a foreign agent working on behalf of the government of Georgia."
I assume that when you are talking about freedom:
Anytime the world becomes less free, as it has in this situation, it is something to be regretted and hopefully reversed and whomever or whatever made the world less free should be the automatic object of opprobrium.
that you mean the particularly American kind of freedom where it is the USA who invade a country and overthrow the government and not any body else?
-
that you mean the particularly American kind of freedom where it is the USA who invade a country and overthrow the government and not any body else?
Well, Tony, am I the only person who thinks New Zealand's tough talk to folks who overthrow democratically elected governments much closer to home is looking a wee bit hollow right about now?
-
I'll pass over the two errors of grammar...
Thanks Trevor for the grammar lesson. I'll always be grateful to you. But it's important to focus on the argument rather than trying to belittle an opponent. Note Russell's reply. Done in the spirit of healthy argument. What was your point anyway?
-
Craig
Well, Tony, am I the only person who thinks New Zealand's tough talk to folks who overthrow democratically elected governments much closer to home is looking a wee bit hollow right about now?
What? So Bainimarama is granted permission to pass through NZ on his way to Niue for the South Pacific Leaders' Forum, and this is in some way comparable to American imperialism by expansion as developed practically through the use of military force over the last 300 years?
Please explain, I'm not sure that I see the connection...
-
Ummm, James? First paragraph of the blog entry that this discussion is attached to:
Actually, it gets worse. The WaPo has discovered that Scheunemann is still billing the Georgians, via his two-man company, even as he takes McCain's dollar for "advice". Astonishing, but by recent standards, sadly not surprising.
Meanwhile, the BBC reports from the S. Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, mostly flattened in the original Georgian assault, where people are really pissed off. Thing I didn't know: most South Ossetians already carry Russian passports ...
-
Tony,
Scheunemann, neocon or not, is hardly driving the train is he? He is an advisor to a presidential candidate who is odds on to lose right now.
As for the "American kind of freedom", what exactly does that mean? The freedom I enjoy in the US is pretty much the same as the freedom I enjoyed growing up in NZ and people enjoy in any country around the world typically described as "free".
As for overthrowing governments, what could possibly be wrong with whomever overthrowing governments such as North Korea, Burma, Zimbabwe which horrendously oppress their populations, as long as the hell that was before was replaced with a more free environment and human rights where virtually none exisited before?
-
What? So Bainimarama is granted permission to pass through NZ on his way to Niue for the South Pacific Leaders' Forum, and this is in some way comparable to American imperialism by expansion as developed practically through the use of military force over the last 300 years?
Well, Tony, heavens forfend we actually ask if our own Government's rhetoric is a comfortable fit with its actions. Please, resume normal service.
-
Thing I didn't know: most South Ossetians already carry Russian passports ...
i seem to remember that many people from the former soviet republics do?
much like former british colonies i guess.
could be wrong on that one, but remember speaking with a latvian who was able to use both passports.
-
RB,
Apparently most South Ossetians have been issued Russian passports. Part of Russia's long running annexation plan.I don't get your obsession with Scheunemann, who appears to be a very minor bit part player at best. Advises McCain, so what? Apart from making a few statements on the subject as part of his campaign, McCain has had nothing to do with any administration decisions on the topic.
The idea that neocons have been at the bottom of nearly every US policy or action over the last nearly 8 years is just so obviously not true.
Do yourself a favour, stop foaming at the mouth at the mention of the word "neocon".
-
JLM,
Actually, it gets worse. The WaPo has discovered that Scheunemann is still billing the Georgians, via his two-man company, even as he takes McCain's dollar for "advice". Astonishing, but by recent standards, sadly not surprising.
Has anyone suggested in commentary anywhere that a major driver for US "encouragement" for the first Georgian action could be to keep the US pre-election focus on foreign affairs, an area where McCain has an inexplicable (to me) advantage over Obama? With a diversion from the messy Middle East to reignite old cold war associations.
-
As for the "American kind of freedom", what exactly does that mean? The freedom I enjoy in the US is pretty much the same as the freedom I enjoyed growing up in NZ and people enjoy in any country around the world typically described as "free".
The "American kind of freedom" that I referred to James is the particularly American view that war is necessary to preserve freedom when in fact one of the defining characteristics of "American freedom" has been the freedom to go to war whenever it looked as though that would be a good way to advance the "national interest" (however that was defined at the time).
As for overthrowing governments, what could possibly be wrong with whomever overthrowing governments such as North Korea, Burma, Zimbabwe
I would say the death of innocents, the bad track record of that particular form of diplomacy to date and the small question of who is the judge to decide which governments should be overthrown and which shouldn't.
-
Well, Tony, heavens forfend we actually ask if our own Government's rhetoric is a comfortable fit with its actions. Please, resume normal service.
I'm sorry Craig, forgive me if I seem dense, but I really don't get where you are going with this one.
So, as I see it, the NZ govt announced a policy to refuse NZ visas to all Fijian military personnel who were involved with the coup. One of the effects of that ban is that Bainimarama is unable to travel to Niue for the South Pacific Leaders' Forum. Presumably it was decided that there might be some value in engaging him at that forum, so the ban has been waived for a short time.
I'm looking for hypocrisy there, but I'm having trouble finding it. Perhaps I'm missing something?
-
The "American kind of freedom" that I referred to James is the particularly American view that war is necessary to preserve freedom
sorry, I should have said
The "American kind of freedom" that I referred to James is the particularly American view that war is only acceptable to preserve freedom
-
Tony,
So it is unclear to you whether the regimes of North Korea, Burma or Zimbabwe deserve to be overthrown or not? A regime that starved to death 2 1/2 million of its own citizens (10% of its entire population) is not deserving of being overthrown on humanitarian grounds?You must have been pissed when Milosevic was overthrown!! Srebrenica, hey no problem!! Who are you to say that slaughtering 9,000 men and boys is bad!! Who are you to be so judgmental!! Those starved people in concentration camps? Like those damn North Koreans, they needed to go diet anyway!!
Well, I guess that is moral relativism for you. An inability to see the blindingly obvious. A sad place to be.
-
Well, I guess that is moral relativism for you. An inability to see the blindingly obvious. A sad place to be.
Fuck your moral relativism. The world isn't black and white.
If you're gonna be the judge of who should get to stay in power and who shouldn't James, is there anyone else on your list of governments who need to be overthrown for "freedom"?
Maybe you could list them alphabetically for me. No wait, list them in order of evil - maybe you could run a column next to that list of how many civilians would die in each "freedom excursion" too. Then we could find the point where a government was insufficiently evil to be worth that many deaths.
-
I'm looking for hypocrisy there, but I'm having trouble finding it. Perhaps I'm missing something?
Well, it depends on whether you think travel bans are credible or effective when they're not applied consistently, or are no more than cosmetic window dressing in the first place.
-
Tony,
So it is unclear to you whether the regimes of North Korea, Burma or Zimbabwe deserve to be overthrown or not? ...Well, I guess that is moral relativism for you. An inability to see the blindingly obvious. A sad place to be.
What a lot of nonsense, James. It's very easy to prescribe war when you won't personally have to endure it.
It's not a fucking TV reality show and we're not talking about who "deserves" to get thrown off the island because they're, like, bad.
It's about the real consequences of actual war, not some "blindingly obvious" moral gotcha you think you can use to corner liberals:
"If you don't support the immediate violent overthrow of all bad people then you're just as bad as the bad people are!"
C'mon ...
-
Well, it depends on whether you think travel bans are credible or effective when they're not applied consistently, or are no more than cosmetic window dressing in the first place.
Well, you've managed to misdirect that one nicely Craig, although I'm with Tony in seriously struggling to see the equivalence. I can't really see your point.
-
Well, it depends on whether you think travel bans are credible or effective when they're not applied consistently, or are no more than cosmetic window dressing in the first place.
I guess that I think that there is enough at stake that we shouldn't pick one strategy at the exclusion of all others and sit back, waiting for it to work. The fact remains that travel out of Fiji is now extremely difficult for everyone who was involved in the coup. That is pressure. Bainimarama will now attend the leaders forum. People will speak to him there. That is pressure.
-
Hard to [know] how a Kerry administration would have been much different in this regard (except handing Iraq to Al Qaeda and Iran’s Shia militias).
Yes, of course. And the Handover Ceremony would have probably look something like this:
-
Well, you've managed to misdirect that one nicely Craig, although I'm with Tony in seriously struggling to see the equivalence. I can't really see your point.
Guys, ignore it. But I just find it rather ironic that the policy of our own government isn't worth a fraction of the energy expended on finding a NeoCon agenda in a rather horrible mess that might have its causes a little closer to home. But never mind.
-
OK, my last was needlessly snarksome. I'm sorry, I really wasn't trying to jack the thread -- I just found it rather ironic opening the Herald (which is supposedly the paper of record in these parts) and finding that lifting sanctions against a man who was at the center of a military coup in our own backyard wasn't actually considered particularly newsworthy. That might just say nothing more than "if it don't bleed, it don't lead".
Post your response…
This topic is closed.