Hard News: The Spiral of Events
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I don't know why you are questioning why Helen Clark didnt trustOwen Glenn.
Helen Clark knew a donation was made. Owen Glenn told her. If she didn't believe Owen Glenn, but chose to believe Mr Peters, why all the repeated phone calls to seek clarification from Peters?
Helen Clark knew Owen Glenn was telling the truth. But she didnt want us to know she knew that. She didnt want to answer the question from Bill English in Parliament either the day Glenn told Clark of the donation her. So Cullen answered it and denied it. If he knew, as he should have done, he has misled Parliament. If he didnt he should have found out
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I think the point is not "did Helen trust Owen Glenn" but "did Helen think the public would trust Owen Glenn" at that particular point of time (when the nats and the media were beating on him)
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Helen Clark knew Owen Glenn was telling the truth. But she didn't want us to know she knew that.
Assumption. All Helen Clark knew was that Owen Glen had told her about a donation and the Winston had denied it. The political ramifications of calling your Foreign Minister a liar are not unsubstantial.
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It's here in Trotter's blog. It's simply bizarre:
Poor Trotter, he appears to be in a form of terminal decline that affects both right and left. An example from the distant past, from The Chaser (http://www.chaser.com.au/content/view/3286/127/):
**Billy Snedden**
While not a cold-blooded killer, the 1970s Federal Liberal leader certainly was a character. Legend has it he died on top of his mistress in a cheap Rushcutters Bay motel – apparently the unlucky lass was his son's old girlfriend. But the good-looking conservative would have been dead soon anyway, given his terminal case of foot in mouth disease. He once described a bunch of peaceful protesters as ‘political bikies pack-raping democracy'. Legend has it during a speech at a Liberal function in Queensland in the 1970's a well-lubricated Snedden dropped this clanger: "Well, first I'd like to thank the good ladies of the branch for providing such a scrumptious repast, and old Jack here for fixing up the hall, and Fred for getting us the sound system and his lovely wife for the flowers, and well, I'm sure there are other people I've forgotten, but who gives a fuck". That kind of humour didn't really go down very well in pious Sir Joh country.
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I think my one qualm about the fairness of the whole business is wondering how it would play out if the media demanded every other party prove their anonymous donations went to the right place.
Zackerly Lyndon. I can't help but feel that the respective parties are pointing with one hand and have fingers crossed behind their backs with the other hand.
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What if the Maori Party hadn't been the last cab off the rank?
I think Maori Party in with Greens and Labour is going to be a coalition possibility, but it'll take a couple of electoral terms for them to be close enough to kiss and make up, just like it took a couple of terms for Labour and Alliance to do so.
There will need to be distance in terms of time from the SB & FS.
Also, I don't think the Maori party are any more stable than NZ First at present.
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I don't see your point I/S. You don't think the democratic process counts for anything?
Legitimacy <> credibility. The mere fact that someone is elected does not make them more likely to tell the truth. To think it does is a logical fallacy - not to mention an invitation to abuse.
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Quite apart from anything else, I think this pretty much spells the end of any chance of a Labour government past this election. At this point I suspect the only thing Helen can influence is how badly Labour are fucked in this election and probably the next. One hopes she doesn't go like Jenny Shipley, spreading her legs for anyone who could promise another month, another week, another day in power.
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Jenny Shipley, spreading her legs
Do you mind? I was just having my lunch.
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Matthew Hooton said:
When are Labour-leaning people going to say no to Peters in the way many National-leaning people, particularly those of us on the socially liberal wing of the party, did some years ago?
Matthew, I thought National had started saying No to Peters about 48 hours ago? They certainly didn't say No after the last election. It was a matter of arithmetic, not principle.
I'm delighted to hear that National has a "socially liberal wing". After Orewa and civil union votes and Burqa Bob and "immigrants who spit in the street" and the Sisterhood and all the other thoroughly illiberal attitudes demonstrated over the years, it seemed like less of a wing, more a flimsy feather.
Loathing Peters is not evidence of liberal principles. Standing up for something would be. Preferably before the pollsters say it's OK.
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Matthew, I thought National had started saying No to Peters about 48 hours ago? They certainly didn't say No after the last election. It was a matter of arithmetic, not principle.
How does Hooton do this? Time after time, he says stuff that is simply not true, and he does it on National Radio and in national newspapers. Yet he keeps getting invited back to do it again.
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Time after time, he says stuff that is simply not true, and he does it on National Radio and in national newspapers. Yet he keeps getting invited back to do it again.
Sounds a bit like Winston to me.
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I don't see your point I/S. You don't think the democratic process counts for anything?
I can't speak for I/S, but I have enormous respect for democracy. Doesn't mean I don't often look at the results and wonder if the universe is having a cruel joke at our expense. Exhibit A: Brian Connell. Not exactly a glittering jewel in the crown of the House of Representatives or the annals of the New Zealand National Party (especially those in Rakaia who selected him in the first place). Democrazy, gotta love it.
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Jenny Shipley, spreading her legs
Do you mind? I was just having my lunch.
<waves> Hey, you guys? You might make a few of us with vaginas who don't appreciate slut-shaming metaphors a little uncomfortable with that one.
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You might make a few of us with vaginas ... a little uncomfortable with that one.
Hey, we're all feeling a bit queasy. It wouldn't matter what "the ship" had between her legs (I'm sure there's a nautical joke in there somewhere).
So.... 3:40pm and Winston still has a job. He might even make it to the weekend. -
What Danielle said.
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yup. the ship comment was a bit OTT, imo.
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<waves> Hey, you guys? You might make a few of us with vaginas who don't appreciate slut-shaming metaphors a little uncomfortable with that one.
Ditto. And I ran into Jenny Shipley a couple of months ago. First, rather spooky that she remembered who I was after six years (or faked it very well). I guess there's truth in the old saw that the best revenge is living well. :)
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First, rather spooky that she remembered who I was after six years ...
You probably underrate your memorability.
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So, we still have a government, and we'll still get an ETS.
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Way up thread Matthew Hooton reckoned there was a lot of support at Wednesday's Drinking Liberally in Auckland for the embattled former Foreign Affairs Minister, and I wondered what he was smoking.
Paul L will back me up on this, he was there too - the guest speaker, a certain Laila Harre, who I understand may be familiar to Mr Hooton, from the verbal thrashings she gives him most Mondays, talked about the union movement . She only mentioned Winston in passing at the beginning of her talk (that I can recall), when she said that she thought that she and Mr Hooton could agree that Winston should go. I think there were some supportive laughs from the crowd.
Otherwise I don't think he got much of a mention, so I'm not sure what all this support from the crowd was. There were 80 people there, and I talked to probably about 20 over the course of the night and don't remember anyone raising Winston in conversation, although I'm sure Mr Hooton's liberal friend might have had a different experience. But there wasn't any Wiii-in-ston Peeee-ters, Obama style, that's for sure.
On Mr Trotter's odious and unnecessary comparison, the ex-expat has taken him to task, and I'm glad to see he has managed to disappoint a lot of readers here too. I am starting to smell a bit of a "getting noticed" intention, given the fight he picked with Idiot Savant earlier in the week. Ah well, I guess time will tell whether he intends to go on in this vein, because he does have a lot of good points to make, if he could just leave the gratuitous and offensive rape analogies to Whaleoil et al.
Danielle you rock!
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Thank God I'm in Thailand, and I plan to stay here for another two weeks.
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How does Hooton do this? Time after time, he says stuff that is simply not true, and he does it on National Radio and in national newspapers. Yet he keeps getting invited back to do it again.
Itss bizarre but then Winston's been doing it for years.
My dealings with Hooten are about a decade old now, but it seems nothing's changed in that time. My conclusion is that any alternative, for the NatRad slot that is, probably recognises that Harre's going to better them on most occassions whereas Mathew wouldn't know or care.
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Laila Harre, who I understand may be familiar to Mr Hooton, from the verbal thrashings she gives him most Mondays
To be honest, Julie, I think the only thrashings going down in that slot most of the time is to the intelligence of the listener. They're reasonable (if predictably partisan) half the time, but when those two get their freak on they don't bugger about. The row around the pledge card fiasco was a particular low point -- Hooten pretty much said the election was "stolen" by an "illegitimate" Government (which is drawing a bow far too long), then Lila chipped in opining that the Auditor-General - an officer of Parliament, by the way -- had obviously been blatantly colluding with National to bring down the Government.
Kathryn Ryan should have cut their microphones and put on a CD, in my opinion.
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What a political mess. Miss Clark has lost all credibility over here. What on earth is happening over the ditch?
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