Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Veitch

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  • Kracklite,

    I think the judge did a judgy job to the best of her ability with all information to hand.That is what Law seems (to me)to be.Justice on t'other hand.......

    I do agree, alas. The legals system that must be supported is the worst of all possible systems - except for all the others. A sentence has to delivered according to the case presented. I suspect that had I been on the jury trying Rickards, for example, I would have been compelled to extend the benefit of the doubt according to the evidence as it was presented in the context of the trial. [grits teeth]

    This may account for my rage, which disturbs me as I don't imagine myself as the sort who'd join a lynch mob. It's just that I don't believe in karma.. but if there were such a thing, I'd be able to account for the quantity of E. coli in my gut.

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 982 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    people who use it and its effect on people around them

    If that's true, it's disgusting - but it is nothing more than speculation right now. Although we were guided in our earlier discussions about this by assessments of character and probability, I respect the current vulnerability of this forum as Russell has described it.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19686 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Llewellyn,

    While I think the reluctance to accept genuine responsibility on the part of the guilty party is nauseating, I have to say that I think both parties (in Veitch's case spectacularly so) will be extremely ill-advised to continue to try and prosecute this matter via PR and media over the next few weeks.

    While its infinitely more understandable on the part of the complainant (wanting to be able to - finally - tell her story in the face of what has appeared to be a very well-orchestrated campaign), a protracted war of 'leaks' will do absolutely nobody - hungry media and salacious public aside - any favours whatsoever.

    If I was advising the person who pled guilty. Stop. Take your lumps. Admit your terrible mistake with no caveats. Do not try and justify or rationalise. Do not drag this out through the court of public opinion. If you want sympathy, remember this is not about you. Do not try and attack the media - this will be counter-productive. Move on. Rebuild. By trying to continually spin this matter in your favour you damage yourself. Do not claim 'This was not me" in the same breath as a guilty plea. Most reasonable people will believe in the power of redemption if they think it is founded on a genuine belief or desire to make good on past mistakes. Prove to people that you understand all this and that you can change.

    Mt Albert • Since Nov 2006 • 399 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    So I quote in good faith from this story:

    Despite the guilty plea, National Network of Stopping Violence Services national manager Brian Gardner told NZPA there were aspects to Veitch's behaviour since the sentencing that suggested he did not fully accept responsibility for his actions.

    Like many men he had treated for violence problems, Veitch's reaction appeared to be mixed, Mr Gardner said.

    "Part of them will front up and take responsibility for the behaviour and then there's another bit of them that sort of minimises it or puts it outside of themselves," Mr Gardner said.

    "They want to keep saying to people `I'm a good guy, I'm a good guy', and actually that's not the issue, about whether you're a good guy or not, the question is what are you going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again."

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19686 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    I was reading the new Listener today, and I saw an interview with Steve Coogan. Apparently he opens his UK shows with a song called "Everybody's a c*** sometimes.". I feel this appropriate to the topic at hand, and to the person who is aforementioned. Emphasis on the C word, really, and not the Everybody. As you were.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3136 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    to continue to try and prosecute this matter via PR and media

    And I quote from this story:

    Meanwhile, Veitch was asked about speculation that his legal team had "some dirt on her" that led to the plea bargain.

    Veitch replied: "I did some investigating ... I went and I dug and I went through records and I went through discovery and do you know what? I had a good time and I found stuff. So you are talking about dirt, (I am talking about) evidence."

    Both parties have criticised media coverage of their case and Veitch yesterday threatened to sue some media.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19686 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    By "c***" I presume you mean "c**k", right?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19686 posts Report Reply

  • Kracklite,

    If that's true, it's disgusting - but it is nothing more than speculation right now

    Maybe, but it was used by the defence, with Veitch's approval, apparently to his benefit. Admittedly, I do not know what the judge thought of it and I'm likely relying overmuch on my own experience in which some people who are emotional narcissists/sadists try to inflict as much pain as they can on other people (often those they have selected precisely because they are vulnerable) by any means at hand so as to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions. It is entirely my own observation, but Veitch is a thug who cannot accept that he is responsible for anything and the moment he is faced with responsibility, overdramatises his own plight. It's a trick I've seen again and again at greater and lesser magnitude.

    It is the pattern that I see that I despise. Abuse is so often compounded beyond the physical events and their direct consequences by the psychological self-justification that follows, and no court can deal with that.

    Anyway, as I've implied, I'm not a judge nor on any jury, I'm not presented with the evidence and I'm not bound by their responsibilities and if I were, I would be far more temperate, I hope [grinding teeth again].

    If you like, if you wish to furnish me with an escape clause, pretend that I'm dealing with the category of abuse, rather than Veitch himself.

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 982 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    prosecute this matter via PR and media

    But wait, there's more:

    Mr Grieve said Veitch was "stitched up" over several issues, including publicity of the agreement for him to pay Ms Dunne-Powell money to compensate her for loss of income, medical and other costs.

    "I have got information established to my satisfaction that she was in contact with news media beforehand. That was one of the reasons the confidentiality aspects of the deed of settlement were sought and granted.

    "I don't think it was any accident this thing was leaked. Where that leak came from I do not know. I am not suggesting necessarily it came from the complainant at all but as I understand it, the decision to publish it by the Dominion Post (the Wellington newspaper which broke the story) was made by senior executive level, not by journalists," he said.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19686 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    By "c***" I presume you mean "c**k", right?

    Why, no, Sacha. I don't.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3136 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    apparently to his benefit

    Can't argue with that - and "who benefits?" is a very useful question in most situations.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19686 posts Report Reply

  • Kerry Weston,

    So, will the 300 hours community service etc sentence set a precedent for other cases in the future? It seems mighty light to me. i think New Zealand women would do well to feel afraid. So often it seems one would do better to simply walk away and spare yourself the agony.

    Manawatu • Since Jan 2008 • 494 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    That, Kerry, is the thing I am bothered by.
    A definite message has been sent out to ANZ women who dont have lawyers, media spinners, a public profile - hell, to any woman who doesnt even have family support!- if your mate has knocked you around in a bone-damaging way, dont bother complaining-

    it is ALWAYS "Not OK" - but this whole kveeech thing has undermined that-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Kracklite,

    As a corollary or elaboration, abusers try to make their victims think that they have at some level brought it upon themselves and that they are if not guilty, helpless and fated in some way to endure what they receive, disconnected from other, luckier, people. People who wonder why abused persons do not simply leave their abusers do not understand the insidious dynamics of an abusive relationship - the very strategy and nature of abuse is to demolish any resistance or path of escape so that the abuse can continue (and escalate) with full 'justification'.

    Sacha, I do not by any means accuse you of any naivete, by the way. I'm talking to the gallery, as it were.

    To get on my soapbox, if you see that a woman's refuge is collecting, give. Even if someone can 'get away with it', then the thing that must matter, the one positive thing that can come out of this, is the certainty that there always is a place to go, somewhere safe.

    Most reasonable people will believe in the power of redemption if they think it is founded on a genuine belief or desire to make good on past mistakes.

    I'm reminded of a student of mine, with convictions for GBH and Heroin offences, who said that A Clockwork Orange had been his youth but who had, by the time I met him, changed quite sincerely and had become (and is) someone I quite like and admire. Here's hoping, but Veitch, I'm afraid, does not strike me as someone that intelligent.

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 982 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    To get on my soapbox, if you see that a woman's refuge is collecting, give.

    Why wait to be solicited? Their online donation form is very user friendly and if you happen to be an idiot and, erm, enter the wrong credit card details, they'll get in touch and be very nice and not at all pushy about it.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Mrs Skin,

    By "c***" I presume you mean "c**k", right?

    Why, no, Sacha. I don't.

    Hahaha excellent. This is why I spend my precious procrastination time here. You guys rawk.

    the warmest room in the h… • Since Feb 2009 • 168 posts Report Reply

  • Kracklite,

    So often it seems one would do better to simply walk away and spare yourself the agony.

    That, Kerry, is the thing I am bothered by.

    It worries me too, considering the statistics of rape and abuse - that which occurs versus that which is reported... and the police's willingness to take complaints seriously.

    We place too much faith in the absolutes of the law - and I do not mean that in a cynical way, rather I mean that ultimately it is culture that matters, and therefore the 'It's not OK' campaign is definitely vital to raise awareness and to - however incrementally - change the climate of attitudes.

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 982 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    the decision to publish it by the Dominion Post (the Wellington newspaper which broke the story) was made by senior executive level, not by journalists," he said.

    What's Grieve saying here. Decisions on what gets published are never made by journalists, they're made by editors. If he thinks otherwise, he's not nearly so learned as he is purported to be.

    Is he trying to intimate that journalists were really on Veitch's side, and that the story is the result of some executive vendetta? His client pled fucking guilty to a serious crime. IIRC, the decision to prosecute does not rest with a journalist, or editor, or even the victim.

    These people should just shut up and go away.

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    change the climate of attitudes.

    Yes! Remove Paul Henry immediately.That's a start.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    IIRC, the decision to prosecute does not rest with a journalist, or editor, or even the victim.

    I'm curious: could anybody name a single case in which the strategy of blaming the media has actually paid off? There may be several, but I can't think of any and have always assumed it led to disaster. Even the My Views troll-o-rama seems to have decidedly turned against Veitch after the circus of the last 24 hours.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Kracklite,

    I'm curious: could anybody name a single case in which the strategy of blaming the media has actually paid off?

    As a strategy, no, but as a reflex... well in that case, payoffs aren't consciously considered.

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 982 posts Report Reply

  • Kerry Weston,

    some people who are emotional narcissists/sadists try to inflict as much pain as they can on other people (often those they have selected precisely because they are vulnerable) by any means at hand so as to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.

    Bingo! I can see this whole nasty business has touched a nerve with you, Kracklite - pinged the whole nervous system even - me too, and doubtless many others. I've never had to endure physical abuse, only various forms of emotional/mental blah, and I'm pretty good at spotting the patterns now.

    I agree it's the culture that matters - the willingness to minimise, excuse, forgive the abusers and (worse to me) willingness to find the slightest excuse to claim the victim attracted their punishment.

    I accept that humans have a remarkable capacity for cruelty to each other. i don't want to accept it but the evidence is overwhelming.

    Funny, though, how some cases attract the judicial line: "we've got to make an example of them, so others will realise they can't get away with it" and others don't. I'm disappointed that this case evaded that line and i do believe it sets a tragically bad example.

    Manawatu • Since Jan 2008 • 494 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    2 He was in a bad relationship.
    This is not meant in any way to excuse his actions - but -

    Bart, having just spent the evening reading through this entire thread, and also watching the Campbell Live interviews (her: impressive and restrained; him: looking even more a dick)...

    ...today feels like the day where statements like the above should be interrupted at the 'but' and not allowed to continue. Isn't that exactly what he said at his original media statement? "It is no excuse but [five reasons which are no reason to hit another person follow]"

    This Guy got 180 hours community service and ordered to pay reparation for wilfully damaging a bag of feta cheese.

    Heh. Good context point Steve. I'd feel more comfortable about the 300 hours if it was all devoted to appearing in newspaper, tv, and radio adverts with a script written by womens refuge rather than by his media minders.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    I remember reading that American Idol contestants, for example, are weeded into three groups before the judges even lay eyes on them. The middle group - the unexceptional ones - never see the judges at all, while the other two groups - 'good singers' and 'deluded/crazy/taking the piss people' get to go to the audition room we see on the telly.

    It's an average book (no where near as good as Stark for example) but Ben Elton's Chart Throb will pre-disillusion you about these relaity idol type shows. And yes, they totally cover the the pre-selection before the judges get to you see process.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Tinshed,

    I agree with your views on Tony Veitch. He has come perilously close to sounding like he is as much a "victim" as the woman he kicked in the back as she lay on the floor. We have a long way to go, I'm afraid, before we confront male violence.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Jul 2008 • 12 posts Report Reply

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