Hard News: Veitch
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People with depression, Mrs Skin, gnerally dont-
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Giovanni - agree. Not intending to speculate on whether that's what the chap has done, just saying that the behaviour exists.
Islander - he was definitely depressed but not in the way that people who genuinely attempt suicide are. A question of degree perhaps. He certainly didn't have that scary-black-hole-suck of energy surrounding him. But his wife died and he almost completely lost the plot for quite some time. Could barely drag himself out of bed for 18 months. I'd challenge anyone to say that's not depression.
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Sue,
Like I've said before, real proper clinical physiological help is difficult to obtain.
but it's not, it's not hard, there are plenty of really good clinical psychologists out there. go through your GP, go through your lawyer, go through the white pages, go through a national register
finding the right person for you is hard, I know, but you keep on trying and yes that's hard but people around you should be wanting the best for you and supporting and encouraging you to get proper help
if someone tried to commit suicide, that would tend to indicate they have not or are not receiving the best mental health treatment they can. not even from their GP and they've been let down
i would not wish the feelings and emotions that come with wanting to kill yourself on anyone.
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finding the right person for you is hard, I know, but you keep on trying and yes that's hard but people around you should be wanting the best for you and supporting and encouraging you to get proper help
And when you can find $300k to spend on your legal/PR team before you even get as far as appearing before a depositions hearing, you can certainly afford some quality therapy. Hell, if he'd put even a 10th of his defence/spin fund into getting counselling he might've been given the kick in the head required to get him over himself and into a place where he could own up, plead guilty, and thus obviate the need to throw so much more money to the leeches and sharks.
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3410,
A close family member recently did exactly that, as an 'O pity meeeee' thing.
I'd suggest that no one can really know the reasons for that.
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There are a lot of really good counsellors and therapists - a clinical psychologist is only one option. So long as they are registered or belong to a professional association.
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I asked and he said.
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He's a poor human being, but still a human being, and speculating over whether he really mean to kill himself, or sneering because he failed to do a good job of it is not classy .
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It was the "o pity meee" thing" Mrs Skin...most (every in my experience0 clinical depressives just *cant* care about anyone (including themselves) when wanting to stop the pain-
I'm a dysthymic (it's the kind of joke end of depression - the depression you have when you arnt depressed?) and it is - just the way you are born. And it is *infinitely* preferable to any kind of mental disease.
Which depression most emphatically is.
Sue - you right. Help is out there - but some people, for a wide variety of reasons, cant access it (I'm thinking paticularly of one of my cousins, in the late 1970s, who killed herself because she was convinced someone had makutu'd her - she'd spent time in the bin - as she put it- and the drugs were less effective then, but...there are still people with her mindstance around-)
And you are absolutely right about the 'feelings & emotions that come with wanting to kill yourself" - they are terrible, corrosive (on everybody concerned) , deeply oppressive, and scarring.
I've had someone nearly die in my arms from that-thank goodness the ambulance system worked-
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most (every in my experience0 clinical depressives just *cant* care about anyone (including themselves) when wanting to stop the pain-
I know what you're saying, Islander. I've lost a friend to that black-holeness. But I think of depression as a spectrum, rather than an on-off switch. The spectrum does seem to have a point of no return on it, that is, the point at which it becomes almost impossible to stop being depressed or get outside that headspace. My relative had not - thankfully - reached that point.
Perhaps 'suicide attempt' is a just convenient carpet-bag term. If you prefer we can call his action a call for help that damn near killed him. He was almost gone when the ambulance arrived.
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Jeez - dysthymia... That looks trying.
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An observation, not a critique:
The 'look at me' suicide attempts can be 'sincere' at a subjective level and not cynically motivated at all insofar as cynicism implies conscious intention. I am acutely aware that people are not always fully cognisant of what actual personal extinction means. Many teenage suicide attempt survivors said that they fantasised of the people at their funeral being sorry and suitably punished thereby, and that they would be, at some level, able to observe and appreciate this. Such feelings were not fully thought through or rationalised, but felt nonetheless, and in any case, many suicide attempts are impulsive and their consequences are not considered... indeed, their very object is to escape all consequences while punishing others.
It does not serve any useful purpose, I think, to over-rationalise on limited terms the intentions and supporting logic of some extreme actions. Much of human behaviour is motivated by complex and even sophisticated but nonetheless unconscious motivations related to the manipulation of others.
Personality disorders, I have observed, serve admirably well, certain specific but limited aims. Whether they are 'nice' or 'logical' or 'rational' (whatever the Hell that means) has nothing to do with it, and finding rational means, justifications, excuses or cause for condemnation seems to me irrelevant.
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Stephen Judd, you asked before about speculation. Well, who invites this speculation? His representatives, who phone TV3 with the news just in time to make it breaking news at the top of the 6pm bulletin and just when the Sunday papers are thinking about their front pages.
As for intention, there's a basic rule of thumb in mental health circles that if someone is talking positively about plans for the future -- as Veitch was on Thursday, re his career and children -- then they are generally not genuinely suicidal. Apologies if it seemed like I was sneering before; I don't think I was. But from what we know of this current part of the story, it's obvious that he wanted to be found.
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He's a poor human being, but still a human being, and speculating over whether he really mean to kill himself, or sneering because he failed to do a good job of it is not classy.
Absolutely. I don't want to speculate on anyone's mental state, only to hope that they're getting the help they need.
There is a huge difference between that and using leaked 'suicide attempts' as a PR strategy to make it look like the other is a vindictive person who has destroyed the life of the other - if that was to be the case I would have no sympathy.
Update
His representatives, who phone TV3 with the news just in time to make it breaking news at the top of the 6pm bulletin and just when the Sunday papers are thinking about their front pages.God, if that is true, the man should burn in hell.
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Thank you Kracklite. That's what I was poking blindly at.
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I completely agree, and I think that extends to the people around him. If this is a genuine bid, they need to put the media strategy to one side, dial everything down and see that he gets the help he needs.
Sure -- but I don't think its callous to say I hope there are a few people having a dark night of the soul right about now. I've seen how physically and emotionally abusive people wrap themselves in a near-psychotic bubble of rationalisations and denial, and maintain it because there are friends, family, workmates and even victims who maintain it with Olympic-level enabling. Just most people don't do it in public.
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Stephen Judd, you asked before about speculation. Well, who invites this speculation? His representatives, who phone TV3 with the news just in time to make it breaking news at the top of the 6pm bulletin and just when the Sunday papers are thinking about their front pages.
Oh shit, Phillip. Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but does any editor in this country actually exercise editorial judgement any more? I have to ask.
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Yup Mrs Skin -you're so right - depression *is* a continium - I'm more familiar with the black hole end, but would hate to belittle anyone's experience whatsoever. And apologise, if I have-
dysthymia - hey, you get used to permanant Grey Mondays/Tuesdays/Everydays - after you work out that tht's the way life is going to be for you.
You *really* enjoy the small pleasures - and because I have limited vision, my senses of taste (Lagavulin!All fish!Tastes!) hearing (Rirerire!Tui!All music!)smell(Look at the tastes! Plus smoke - and water - yep, i can smell waters-)
are really rather acute (which might be part of the problem actually, but let's not go there.)
Let's gp to phillipmatthews - who has put the whole matter in a nutshell - and, tautoko that!
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As for intention, there's a basic rule of thumb in mental health circles that if someone is talking positively about plans for the future
Sorry, I disagree profoundly on this specific point.
It is often observed in people about to attempt suicide that they will suddenly, after a period of depression, seem suddenly optimistic or at least relieved. Those about them may think that this means that they have suddenly discovered a reason to keep living when in fact they have come to a state of relief because they have decided that since they are going to die, then there is nothing to worry about.
The warning sign is that someone who has been clearly contemplating suicide suddenly and for no obvious cause suddenly appears to be at peace. When that happens, worry - and get help, fast.
The 'theatrical' suicides may be the actions of fundamentally fragile and shallow individuals who will panic, that is, suddenly try something rash when all their hopes that they had been depending on, suddenly in a new light appear to be worthless.
In short, someone who has been severely depressed and perceiving themselves to be trapped for a long period without hope of relief may be making grocery lists, but nonetheless may suddenly come to a 'aw, fuck it' moment and top themselves.
[Uhhh, Kracklite, I've deleted this paragraph. I can't let a comment about someone's worthiness to live stand here. I know you what you were saying, or trying to, but it didn't read well. Everyone, I'm off to bed. Just be careful -- RB]
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I withdraw the last part of the above statement. I can't claim to know the why or what. I do wish that someone would show some sense, however.
Oh shit, Phillip. Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but does any editor in this country actually exercise editorial judgementany more?
No.
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I think it's becoming clear, if it wasn't before that people around Veitch have made, or allowed him to make, some terrible decisions.
But like I said, I'm tired and I'm off to bed.
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Yup Mrs Skin -you're so right - depression *is* a continium - I'm more familiar with the black hole end, but would hate to belittle anyone's experience whatsoever. And apologise, if I have-
My experience, for what it's worth.
It's not the depression that drives you to extremes, it's the sheer exhaustion of dealing with the depression. Imagine driving a car or riding a bicycle with crooked steering. It will always lead you into the gutter, so you have to compensate, turning the wheel/handlebars to one side. That's fine... but you have to do it all of the time. It's nothing in itself, moment by moment, but the moments add up and if you think that they're never going to end, that nothing will ever change, that nothing will ever make a real difference and you live with the enervation of the fight every day, then one day, without a better future, it's all too much and death looks like a relief.
Er, obviously I'm still here, as are people I know and love. Either or both of two things seem to work: either the real knowledge that something will change or the bloody-minded, 'damnit, there's so much I still want to do, fuck it' feeling.
There's an Arabic tale of a Sultan who asked a wise man to give him something that would make him sad when he was happy and happy when he was sad. The man returned with a ring inscribed with the motto, 'Even this shall pass.'
I have a friend right now who's struggling with a lifetime of atypical depression due, I think, to a genetic disorder resulting in an inability to synthesise certain neurotransmitters, She's very intelligent and working her way through it, finding strategies to cope. It won't pass for her any time soon. I admire her, very much.
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Wouldn't it be wonderful, if tomorrow, or Monday, or this week, the nation focussed again on ending violence among people we know? And pledging not to let it happen?
Some contemplation would be nice. Instead of the reactionary thoughtlessness that spreads across the nation.
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Kracklite- I have a ring I always wear (since nearly a quarter of a century ago.)
It is a troy ounce of pure gold.
It comes off the north shore of my local beach.
Inside, where only i can read it, is an inscription. In runes."This, too, shall pass-"
Because that's how I learned that story: an Indian king asked his advisors, "What is the perfect answer, to everything?"
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What George said.
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