Hard News: Veitch
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The other issue, though, is to what extent barristers use the challenge system to massage the makeup of juries.
My understanding is that both sides have the same number of challenges, so I don't see why it would necessarily affect the make up in favour of one side or the other.
My perhaps overly cynical impression is that prosecutors in particular don't want independent thinkers with trained minds assessing their arguments, and will try to weed these people out if they get beyond the ballotting phase. The ideal is a jury of, ahem, 'average Kiwis' who will be oblivious to the extent to which they're being intellectually bullied.
I don't see why the prosecution in particular would be inclined to "intellectually bully" the jury. As to who wants independent thinkers, that may depend on the nature of the case, and on which side is more confident about the evidence.
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My understanding is that both sides have the same number of challenges, so I don't see why it would necessarily affect the make up in favour of one side or the other.
Well it could do if you wanted to exclude a minority.
If there's a pool of 40 jurors, 5 might be Asian. If you were prosecuting an Asian person you might challenge all Asian jurors.
It wouldn't be very easy to go the other way and exclude all Pakeha jurors, as there would probably be 20 of them.
In a date rape trial you couldn't exclude all females, but you might be able to exclude all females under 40 or something.
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The maximum an ordinary teacher can earn is around 70,000 at the moment
Most earn considerably less than that, and strike a salary ceiling pretty quickly--then the only way up is the admin route. I am married to a senior teacher (Head of Social Sciences at a girls' school), and I am daily reminded how much harder she works than I, as an academic earning around $30,000 more. People always cite teacher 'holidays' but most teachers I know spend much of their non-contact time preparing, marking, running extra-curricular activities (debating, sports, drama, balls etc etc). I work to the so-called 'academic year' which is A and B semester, which is essentially 23 to 24 weeks of teaching (not every day) of any given year.
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they're unlikely to be taking home much more than $100k themselves
I suppose I'm the only person 'round these parts who thinks that's quite a lot of money?
Righto then. As you were. :)
Oh, you're welcome to join us Danielle (joiiiin usssssss).
There's just that small matter of:
four years of tertiary study, and requisite experience
Or, in my case, completely requalifying in a totally different profession after my three years of tertiary study while working a full-time job, and starting again on the bottom rung of the ladder (rewind five years of experience).
And still not earning 100K (I plead poverty, m'lud).
Paid the cost to be the boss
I paid the cost to be the bossLook at me
you know what you see,
you see a bad muthaheh!told you so!
Havin fun, fooling around
Havin fun, got money to boot(youtube embed may not work due to firewall)
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There's just that small matter of:
four years of tertiary studyPffft. Four years is nuttin'. I've been in tertiary study for... lessee... 12 and a half years of my life. (OMG, that's one third of it. I feel ill.) I have squillions of letters after my name. I just keep getting degrees or diplomas in stupid shit that no one cares about/wants to pay me for using. :)
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Hmm, I suppose. Gets tricky, though. Is it six challenges each? If so, would the prosecution lawyer, in your Asia defendant example, want to use up 5 out of their six just to get rid of the 5 Asians?
Would the prosecution be that simplistic: 'we have an Asian on trial, get rid of the Asian's in the jury'? (That's not a rhetorical question; it really might be that crude.)
In the date rape case, a defense lawyer might want to exclude all or most women under 40, for example, but isn't that fair enough? If the barrister is representing the interests of the defendant, and the defendant thinks (or the lawyer believes on his behalf) that using all his challenges on young women will help his chances, then so be it. After all, the defense could counter the "thinking" implicit in that approach by challenging all the older men (on the basis they're likely more conservative).
Still, the more I think about it, the more I think that it's quite likely little is really gained by the' process. It seems like an aspect of the legal system we've held on to by tradition, which could do with an overhaul.
Graeme Edgeler may along soon and shoot down everything I just said. But I ask you: Can we trust a 'Graeme' who doesn't spell his name with an 'H'?
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...my last post was in response to Kyle's, by the way, and "After all, the defense could counter..." should read "...prosecution could counter..."
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The discussion shouldn't be "lawyers are paid too much" - it should be "teachers, nurses and [insert worthy profession] are not paid what they're worth".
Lawyers are paid what they're paid because that's the value the market puts on their work. All praise the market.
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In the date rape case, a defense lawyer might want to exclude all or most women under 40..
I believe studies indicate that it's the other way round - female jurors tend to have less sympathy toward the female victim, so it's the prosecution who want to challenge them.
The only time I got onto a jury, the lawyers used up their 12 challenges within the first 14 people, and were then stuck with the rest of us. Maybe that's why the deadbeat ratio was so high (although it would've taken a pretty switched-on lawyer to notice that one of us was convinced he could determine guilt through the reading of auras).
(Q for the lawyers out there - are jurors supposed to dob in fellow jurors who are clearly not up to the task? Or is it just a given that the "peers" potentially sitting in judgement on you will have "life experiences" that cover the full spectrum from fact to fantasy?) -
Q for the lawyers out there - are jurors supposed to dob in fellow jurors who are clearly not up to the task? Or is it just a given that the "peers" potentially sitting in judgement on you will have "life experiences" that cover the full spectrum from fact to fantasy?
No. Not for simple routine incompetence. You're stuck with the nutters.
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Lawyers are paid what they're paid because that's the value the market puts on their work. All praise the market.
Really? I thought it was because like all rent-seeking "professionals" they have formed a cartel to create legislative barriers to entry and hence artifically limit the supply of services.
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(Q for the lawyers out there - are jurors supposed to dob in fellow jurors who are clearly not up to the task? Or is it just a given that the "peers" potentially sitting in judgement on you will have "life experiences" that cover the full spectrum from fact to fantasy?)
I was once told about some research where prosecutors, following a guilty verdict, got jurors to write down a basic sequence of events relating to the crime - what happened, when, in what order, with what etc.
As often as not the prosecutors found that not only did the members of the jury not get things 'right' as either side had presented it, often in significant ways, but often presented a story which was internally inconsistent/impossible in terms of times, objects, actions etc.
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Really? I thought it was because like all rent-seeking "professionals" they have formed a cartel to create legislative barriers to entry and hence artifically limit the supply of services.
Ah, that old myth. Most of the legislative barriers you refer to either restrict what lawyers can do, or hold lawyers to higher standards of care than other professions. These regulations increase the costs of doing business (e.g. practising fees, insurance obligations etc).
As one of my colleagues posted earlier, we're one of the most regulated professions in the country.
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I forgot to add that the regulation I refer to is not self-imposed. It is imposed by legislation.
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my colleague
m'learned colleague, surely....?
And wrt jury trials, I'm reminded of the old quote about democracy being the worst system of government ever, except for all those other ways which have been tred from time to time.
What do you mean, "I don't support your system"?
I go to court when I have to.If there's a new way, I'll be the first in line.
But it better work this time. -
ScottY: just teasing. But you must admit that the market that lawyers operate in is hardly a very free one. I have as much scope to cause serious financial (and other) loss as the average lawyer through incompetence or malfeasance, and yet the market for programmers is practically Hobbesian by comparison.
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ScottY: just teasing.
So does that mean I should call off my team of colleagues who are at the High Court at the moment with an application for an injuction gagging further criticism?
I have as much scope to cause serious financial (and other) loss as the average lawyer through incompetence or malfeasance, and yet the market for programmers is practically Hobbesian by comparison.
Except that in extreme cases a dodgy or incompetent lawyer might leave you in prison when a competent one would have got you off.
And the other thing to consider is that people often need lawyers when they're in trouble - whether the trouble is financial or personal. One of the rationales for regulating the legal profession is protecting the vulnerable.
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So does that mean I should call off my team of colleagues who are at the High Court at the moment with an application for an injuction gagging further criticism?
Bring it on! I shall represent myself!
(Yes I know what they say about people who represent themselves).
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Except that in extreme cases a dodgy or incompetent lawyer might leave you in prison when a competent one would have got you off.
Just as, perhaps, in equally extreme cases, a dodgy and competent lawyer could save you from a prison sentence when you should have done time?
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Can anyone recommend a good lawyer to do conveyance and to help me set up an owner operator business project, in Levin?
Me too! Me too! In Welly please.
I need a cunning yet empathetic lawyer to help my lovely extricate herself from her leech of an ex.
Or is that possibly asking too much?
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Can anyone recommend a good lawyer to do conveyance and to help me set up an owner operator business project, in Levin?
Setting up Miss Universe New Zealand pageants?
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Best comment on Susan Boyle 'phenomena'
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Can anyone recommend a good lawyer to do conveyance and to help me set up an owner operator business project, in Levin?
You want a live-in lawyer?
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Wishing you success with that venture, Steven. I guess you'll be competing slightly with Weta Workshops, then?
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