Hard News: When that awful thing happens
425 Responses
First ←Older Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 … 17 Newer→ Last
-
The police had "intelligence" that this guy had a pot plant. Did they not have "intelligence" that he also had Guns, ammunition and explosives? and that he may not be the "full quid"?. I think this is the more important part of the problem and should be addressed by any inquiry.
Well, quite obviously they didn't have any such intelligence or it wouldn't have been a simple cannabis warrant. It would've been an Arms Act warrant, backed up with the full might of the Napier AOS and the nearest bomb squad. Your apparently low opinion of the police and their concern for their own wellbeing isn't borne out by historic fact. If they have advice that it's dangerous, they take firearms and do things in a totally different fashion. Look at how they do raids on gang headquarters, for example.
As I noted above, it's simply not practical for every search warrant to be treated as high-risk. AOS officers have other duties, and even in Auckland are too few in number to attend every single warrant serving undertaken each day.
-
Although I didn't bother following this story as it developed, I was pleased to see an example of the police cordoning off an area and waiting the guy out. Perhaps he was too dangerous to get near, but it contrasts well with a few recent shootings by police where I've wondered why they got so close that shooting was their sole remaining option.
(Not that they necessarily had better choices in those instances, but the reports I've seen apparently didn't consider this a question worth answering. Our friend Mr. O'Connor certainly isn't given to raising such considerations.)
-
Or perhaps you could take the view that the police actually fired only two shots in the course of the whole, extremely dangerous situation in which a madman was firing dozens of rounds from military rifles.
But surely, a good part of the point here is that he was not a "madman" tempting as it may be for everyone to try and characterise him as such after the event. Dinah's point about Morning Report is a good one, I thought they were desperately trying to characterise him as out of the ordinary, when the people they spoke to didn't see him as such.
Post event diagnosis glosses over the likelihood that there are many many people in our society (mainly but not exclusively men) who react with violence to things that they perceive as threats. There are many people who through momentary misjudgment dig themselves a hole they can't get out of. Sounds like the Police did a stunning job of trying to help him back out of it, but to no avail.
-
Do you think Jan Molenaar thought he was a bit like Chuck Norris?
Real Facts about Chuck Norris
1. Chuck Norris likes tropical fish. People say that tropical fish don't have personalities, but Chuck Norris thinks his fish are happy to see him when he comes home.
2. Chuck Norris enjoys barbecues. If you're having a barbecue, you should invite him. He will bring some chicken.
3. Chuck Norris usually gets sleepy after lunch, but he doesn't take a nap. Instead, he drinks a cup of coffee.
4. Chuck Norris charges people extra to do their taxes any time after March 15.
5. Chuck Norris puts a great deal of effort into keeping a well-manicured lawn. Chuck Norris asks that you please do not walk on his lawn.
6. Chuck Norris wishes that Washington, D.C. were more like Delaware.
7. Chuck Norris has never kicked anything, except one time when he bought a car, he kicked the tires. But it didn't feel right, and he regretted it."Those were all the facts I could think of," says Norris. "I'll admit: writing that list was hard work. But it did make me feel much better."
-
My favourite was dropping heavy things on the house from a helicopter, to crush it and the man within.
And if we'd still had an adequate air force we could have carpet-bombed the entire neighbourhood. (I believe the military euphemistically call this a "targeted air strike")
That might have satisfied talkback radio at least.
-
Well, quite obviously they didn't have any such intelligence
The question remains. Why did they not have the intelligence?
-
No. Just no! A firearms registry does absolutely nothing to help with gun crime, and ends up costing north of a billion dollars, vastly more than projected, and that's without actually being completed. They're worthless "be seen to be doing something" projects, nothing more.
So how do you stop gun hoarding?
-
What a well written piece. Thankyou Russell.
-
The question remains. Why did they not have the intelligence?
Because it sounds like this guy's friends weren't talking to the cops. We don't live in a police state, Steve, much as people like to characterise it otherwise. If nobody informs the police of something, they don't know. They don't have surveillance cameras in every home, and half the population informing on the other half. Unless you want to change that, intelligence failures are a routine fact of police life. It's just unfortunate that, in this case, the failure resulted in a fatality. The same occurred with the shooting in Mangere last year, where it was unknown that there were weapons in the target house.
-
And.
So the only "intelligence" that the police had was about a dangerous" canabis plant.
I am actually suportive of our police force, generally, but this was not a lack of "intelligence" this was blind ignorance, he was known to them. -
If nobody informs the police of something, they don't know.
They knew he had a pot plant, aparently. I wonder how they knew that?.
-
Weren't the police just using the best tools for the job? So what if it meant some LAVs got to drive down Napier's streets?
I don't know. I just feel like an important line is being crossed here. And while it's being done for all the 'right' reasons -- crazed gunman; grieving family -- the (potential) use of purely military materiel on local civilians is a serious matter and deserves more scrutiny.
-
Having just finished "The Wire" TV show the whole "drug issue" side of it does seem quite pertinent.
We wasted a life, hours of policetime, thousands of dollars on a low level drug bust that even if it did go well wouldn't have made one dent on criminal drug activity.He was hardly Mr Asia.
-
So how do you stop gun hoarding?
You can't, is the short version, unless you give the police the power to conduct random raids on any house to ensure compliance with the law.
If you outlaw owning guns, only outlaws will own guns. The people who will comply with the law are not the ones about whom you need to be concerned. By definition a criminal is not law-abiding. This extends to not registering their firearms. A registry doesn't suddenly make these people abide by the law.Also, what does a registry do to stop hoarding? Why should we stop hoarding? Seriously, why? The police already know the address of every firearms licence holder in the country, with it being an offence under the Arms Act to fail to notify a change of address. They know before any warrant is served if there is a licensed holder resident, and that is certain to be one of the factors considered when determining risk. Mollenar didn't have a firearms licence, as I understand it, so no legal measures would've changed his habits.
-
the (potential) use of purely military materiel on local civilians is a serious matter and deserves more scrutiny.
I would agree, but do not think that the LAV was used on civilians.
-
They knew he had a pot plant, aparently. I wonder how they knew that?
Because people had reported activity that seemed to indicate small-time marijuana dealing. Fairly common. Unfortunately, no one had thought to report the paranoid assembly of a military arsenal. Not at all common.
-
Why did they not have the intelligence?
A good point.
A lot of people around Napier knew that Molenaar had guns and was borderline mentally ill (clearly no longer borderline, by last week).
I think part of the problem, and it's common to a lot of nations, is that a largish portion of the community are no longer particularly inclined to assist the police, and the police have a fairly limited interaction with the community.
A fair part of this comes down to the way a lot of the work the police do is classed (at least by someone) as social control. I think most people accept that dishonesty and violence are crimes and support their suppression.
But there are many crimes that don't have that consensus:
- 30% or more of people in NZ use drugs at least sometimes, and don't accept their criminalisation
- a large portion of NZ motorists are regularly non-compliant and have negative contact with police as a result
- Maori and Pacific people suffer, shall we say, disproportionate attention from the police
- and then you've got young people, street drinkers, punks, political agitators, etc..Maybe we need to pull back as a society from ever increasing legal restriction and look at how we can use non-coercive ways to make society better, rather than using police to try and force people into a mythical perfect society.
-
Caleb, if the police want to use the military as anything other than glorified bulletproof vests, there are statutory checks and balances. Parliament is sitting, and it's incumbent on the Minister of Police to notify the House immediately if the police will be using military force in resolution of a situation. See the Defence Act. No such notification was made, so your horror at this deployment of "military materiel" obviously doesn't meet the standards of a law that's been in place for most of the last two decades.
-
We wasted a life, hours of policetime, thousands of dollars on a low level drug bust
No we didn't. Jan Molenaar wasted a life, hours of policetime, thousands of dollars by unloading on police in his house. The reason for those police being there is almost completely beside the point.
Arguing for cannabis law reform off the back of this incident risks being as distateful as Mr O'Connor using it to argue for "more Tasers, faster".
-
It's the most lethal vehicle I've ever set foot in - and the most expensive. Smaller than I thought it would be, too.
That was the impression I got too. Also, slipping and falling down a companionway hurts like hell. (Fortunately this was on a less than public tour.)
-
I would agree, but do not think that the LAV was used on civilians.
To be fair, there was a clip from Friday's Campbell Live that seemed to show firing from the vicinity of the LAV that approached the house, as the vehicle itself came under heavy fire. If so, then the commanding officer's statement that only two shots were fired by police, on the Thursday, would not seem to be correct.
I'd think this will come out in the wash.
-
We wasted a life, hours of policetime, thousands of dollars on a low level drug bust that even if it did go well wouldn't have made one dent on criminal drug activity.He was hardly Mr Asia.
I don't think we can blame the resulting mess caused by Molenaar's extreme overreaction on the current drug laws. Who's to say the guy wouldn't have gone nuts over something else? Like a pushy Jehovah's Witness at his door?
-
Come on this is New Zealand - carpet bombing an entire neighbourhood could help deal with a big chunk of the wool glut - I'm sure there were at least 3 Nat cabinet ministers down there trying to persuade them to load up with carpets the minute they heard it was on
-
Because people had reported activity that seemed to indicate small-time marijuana dealing. Fairly common. Unfortunately, no one had thought to report the paranoid assembly of a military arsenal.
Perhaps because paranoid people tend to be... well, somewhat more circumspect than penny ante pot dealers? Just wondering...
-
To be fair, there was a clip from Friday's Campbell Live that seemed to show firing from the vicinity of the LAV that approached the house, as the vehicle itself came under heavy fire.
As I'm no longer the military hardware nerd I was when I was 11, someone else can answer this hopefully. Do the LAVs have launchers for tear gas etc? Could that be what was visible?
Post your response…
This topic is closed.