Island Life: BP-Fuelled Rage
205 Responses
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A good cargo bike will carry two children and a load of groceries in style!
Good luck getting ariound Mt Victoria with them.
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I'm down with "SUV driver <> bad person". In an age where we can no longer kids ourselves about the effect of our lifestyle on the environment, I find it difficult to see justification for using an SUV for, say, driving to the office.
The article http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0212.mencimer.htmlDavid linked to has some scary data:Part of the reason for the high kill rate is that cars offer very little protection against an SUV hitting them from the side--not because of the weight, but because of the design. When a car is hit from the side by another car, the victim is 6.6 times as likely to die as the aggressor. But if the aggressor is an SUV, the car driver's relative chance of dying rises to 30 to 1, because the hood of an SUV is so high off the ground. Rather than hitting the reinforced doors of a car with its bumper, an SUV will slam into more vulnerable areas and strike a car driver in the head or chest, where injuries are more life-threatening.
Can any of the pro-SUV persuasion explain to me why we should allow such an inherently dangerous vehicle on our roads ?
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and don't tell my girlfriend's wee hatchback. It'll get delusions of grandeur.
actually, I did move wood & at least one sheep in a mazda presso hatchback once.
I used to bike EVERYWHERE, but I consider it too dangerous to bike around Wellington anymore. And to temper my gas guzzling SUV habits, I will disclose that I live in central wellington during the week & walk everywhere. The car gets used in the weekends, for moving dogs, family, wood & the occasional sheep over long distances.
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Admittedly, there are occasions when you're going to need a motor vehicle
You can move house using just a bicycle. Here's a guy doing it in Lyon
You can see his home-made T-Shirt a little more clearly in this photo. I forget the precise words but their import was that the motorcar was killing the planet and causing stress to everyone.
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Whoops !
Here's a better link
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Not so great for moving a load of firewood &/or a couple of sheep.
Not such a common sight these days on the morning commute in the big cities I'd suggest. The sheep tend to make a terrible mess of the leather seats in the X5.
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A S,
But ultimately, the problem I and many others have is that you are imposing costs (externalities) on others, when that vehicle is compared to a lighter vehicle that performs almost better under almost all use scenarios.
The externalities are a consideration, although I'm unconvinced that they relate specifically more to SUVs than to any other mid-large size passenger vehicle. What I'm struggling with, though, is that most of the externalities that have been raised here, prior to the ones you point to, are perceived externalities.
I started off pointing out that a modern SUV (and let's face it, how many remmers tractors are more than a couple of years old? after all this particular type of driver seems to be the ones everyone hates in this discussion) is probably kinder to the environment than an old, poorly maintained jap import. Since then we've wandered slightly in terms of direction.
Most of the comments thus far come down to a perception that SUV drivers are nasty people. That has bugger all to do with the vehicle itself. It's like blaming aerosol cans for tagging, it just doesn't make sense.
You're correct that an outback is probably better than an SUV. It is, however, probably one of the worst station-wagons in terms of fuel use/impact, and many other station wagons are far more fuel efficient and have a lesser impact. That said, why should I criticise you for the decisions you made on what to drive? You buy, you pay to run it, your call.
Like you said, it is the preachy attitude I've been surprised by too.
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Good luck getting ariound Mt Victoria with them.
If you lived in Lyall Bay however, it would be quite a reasonable position. You've got me though Andrew: a bike cannot do everything a car can. When I lived in Mt Vic, a load of groceries required a bus, a taxi, or sore arms.
If I wanted to travel 100 kilometres in one hour, I couldn't do that on a bike either. Especially not with two kids, a load of groceries, firewood, and couple of sheep in behind.
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And for anyone that scorns SUVs that never leave the paved road... I assure you I've had to drive up on the curb on more than one occasion.
driving. FAIL.
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Can any of the pro-SUV persuasion explain to me why we should allow such an inherently dangerous vehicle on our roads ?
The article linked mentions "a behemoth like the four-ton Chevy Tahoe".
Holy hell, 4 tons? WHat does a typical SUV in NZ weigh?
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probably kinder to the environment than an old, poorly maintained jap import
That's a pretty shaky place to start off from. An SUV driver will be considering station wagons and sedans of comparable age and condition. Unless you can demonstrate that an SUV is markedly cheaper than a lighter vehicle of the same age. They aren't yet.
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"My personal hatred of idiots who insist on trying to drive the length of the country in underpowered toy cars, and who insist on impeding my progress along the way"
Now maybe I'm being a bit defensive here AS, but as someone who worked in the automotive trade for many years, knows a thing or two about cars and regularly drives between Napier and Auckland in a Ford Ka (I'm guessing this is a toy car in your eyes?), I really hate this attitude that drivers of big cars and SUVs carry around with them. They see my small car in front of them on the open road and just have to go past them regardless of what speed I'm doing, only to get in my way as soon as there are a few corners to negotiate. Your average SUV handles like the QEII. I know, I've driven most of them.
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A S,
The article linked mentions "a behemoth like the four-ton Chevy Tahoe".
Holy hell, 4 tons? WHat does a typical SUV in NZ weigh?
Quite a bit less. At that weight, I think an HT license would be needed to drive it in NZ.
The normal 4wd in NZ probably weighs up to about 2,500kg, but usually a lot less I suspect. The normal family sedan/station wagon weighs up to 1700kg or so, but again, usually less.
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If I wanted to travel 100 kilometres in one hour, I couldn't do that on a bike either. Especially not with two kids, a load of groceries, firewood, and couple of sheep in behind.
The point I'm idly skirting around is that there are more reasons for owning a particular type of car than the prestige of driving the kids 100 yards to school in style, even dirty old SUVs, which cause me less stress on the open highway than being sandwiched in the middle of a line of articulated trucks who tailgate & bully everyhting else in their path.
If we could clear any class of vehicle off the roads, I'd start with the trucks - surely railfreight is more efficient anyway?
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It's like blaming aerosol cans for tagging, it just doesn't make sense.
SUVs don't kill people, people kill people?
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Minivans are favored by senior citizens and others (male and female, equally) who volunteer for their churches and carpool with other people's kids. But that's the problem. SUV owners buy them precisely because they don't want the "soccer mom" stigma associated with minivans.
I've gotta be honest & say I think this article is just so much generalising bullshit.
Saintly, volunteering minivan drivers vs satanic SUV soccer moms.
Sheesh. I'm tempted to order a Hummer.
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Sheesh. I'm tempted to order a Hummer.
I lie actually, when the SUV dies, I'll swap it for one of these.
If I need to move livestock in future, I'll get a roofrack.
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A S,
Andrew G, aside from taking that statement slightly outside the context in which it was made, I don't drive an SUV or big car so your assertion doesn't apply in this particular case.
The slower on corners thing of big vehicles is true, but by the same token, small, underpowered cars can also be equally useless on a hilly, windy road. The apparent inability of a significant chunk of NZ drivers to pull over if they are holding up a queue of traffic also applies to drivers of small, as well as large cars.
My favourite car for the Akld to Wgtn run was my escort sport. Not a massive car by any stretch of the imagination, weighing in at around 600kg all up. It did, however, have in addition to great handling, and pretty impressive performance, a phenomenal thirst, which put many friends larger cars to shame. Again, size and impact don't always line up.
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At 1/18th scale it'll need to be a big roofrack:-)
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A S,
SUVs don't kill people, people kill people?
How about treat the disease, not the symptoms?
If you have a problem with drivers, then focus on them. Focusing on an inanimate object as the epitomy of evil seems a bit pointless.
If a particular type of driver is not courteous, or drives unsafely, it is a driver education issue. This suggests a response aimed at improving driving standards is required. Railing against their vehicle seems a bit stupid, and unlikely to address the issue of driver behaviour.
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At 1/18th scale
Well I'll be... OK, here's me & the car salesman looking over my next car earlier today.
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Ahem. Me & the car salesman
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Andrew, absolutely. The problem is bad transport decisions, of which consumers are only a part. SUVs are just a part of the problem, and are an easy scapegoat.
The answer isn't to ban SUVs. It's both more complicated and simple than that. Things like encouraging people to have their children walk and cycle to school, use (improved) public transport services, drive less, and be properly informed about the costs of their vehicle. Rather than whacking a tax on SUVs, a rebate to people who buy bicycles (Denmark gives a rather hefty one so people can buy something nice they'll actually ride) which will save costs to themselves and society.
And remove the helmet laws while we're at it to. They cause more harm than good.
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How about treat the disease, not the symptoms?
Keep people off the road?
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"My favourite car for the Akld to Wgtn run was my escort sport. Not a massive car by any stretch of the imagination, weighing in at around 600kg all up. It did, however, have in addition to great handling, and pretty impressive performance, a phenomenal thirst, which put many friends larger cars to shame. Again, size and impact don't always line up."
If we are talking about modern small cars vs modern big cars then the thirst of the small one, no matter how hard you have to drive it up the hills, will be more modest than the larger car. Incidently, the Ford Ka has an Escort motor from the 60's that has been improved, but by no means as efficient as more modern engines, and on a recent trip where I drove from Napier to Wgtn in a modern 3L Maxima and returned in the Ka, the Ka used exactly half as much fuel as the Maxima.
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