Island Life: The Art of the Deal
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There isn't a lot that ACT and the MP have in common.
Don't you think that's kind of the point? To use a dreadful cliché, I think both ACT and the MP know that there's as much risk in being the tail that tries to wag the dog, as being perceived (fairly or not) as neutered lapdogs.
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No, but Goff's sure got a damn funny way of forming a constructive relationship with a party that (as I said) he might be courting himself, and sooner rather than later.
Absolutely. And one that's struck me about Goff is the clear streak of paternialism that he'll have to keep in check. It was even apparent during his first Presser as Labour leader with his "time will tell" remark. He's a wickedly intelligent bloke, and the right choice for Labour leader at this time, but there are some question marks surrounding him.
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He's a wickedly intelligent bloke
His first foray as leader was wickedly dumb, he'd better improve and quickly.
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<qote>There isn't a lot that ACT and the MP have in common.
<q/uote>Don't you think that's kind of the point? To use a dreadful cliché, I think both ACT and the MP know that there's as much risk in being the tail that tries to wag the dog, as being perceived (fairly or not) as neutered lapdogs.
Oh yes, of course. It's just going to be interesting how it works, is all. And they all know that if they play sensibly for three years, then they'll all reap further rewards.
Mind you, I remember thinking at the end of 2007 that it WP had been (for himself) surprisingly well-behaved as a cabinent minister, and thought there was a possibility of him not having a total meltdown like he did every other time he's seen the baubles so I've never been great with predictions...;) -
His first foray as leader was wickedly dumb, he'd better improve and quickly.
Indeed, hence the rest of my comment about there being "question marks" around him! He seems to evoke a sense of entitlement at the moment, never a good look for a newly chosen leader of a party that's just been ousted out of Government.
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To use a dreadful cliché, I think both ACT and the MP know that there's as much risk in being the tail that tries to wag the dog, as being perceived (fairly or not) as neutered lapdogs.
I don't think it is risk, they must know they're just a bunch of ticks. And could someone please help with me trying to see why this
She said kohanga reo, kura kaupapa and progress in health and social services all came from National.
is so. Craig
No, but Goff's sure got a damn funny way of forming a constructive relationship with a party that (as I said) he might be courting himself, and sooner rather than later.
It's nice to know you think the National Party could implode :)
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Maybe Phil Goff is just calling it as it its. Maybe he doesn't have his memory erased every three years, like so many commentators, and he can see where this will be heading, because he's seen it all before. Maybe he just knows that what we all say now is utterly irrelevant to the fate of this coalition. Yes, he might have said nothing instead, but it really doesn't mattter a damn either way.
Turia will not fight the next election. That's her motivation for this deal. But the Maori Party will. And upthread I asked:
Now it may be that the Maori Party will be the first minor party to retain its support at the next election, after backing the government of the time. But no party has managed it yet. I'd be interested to know why people think this time will be any different. Especially given the economic weather forecast.
Any ideas? For example, what level of spending will Turia and Sharples be looking for in their portfolios? It'll have to be big, right? How will they deliver more to Maori than the previous government? How long will National - and its supporters - want to stump up the cash?
Let's try one small, specific example: the Maori Party policy is a minimum wage of $15 an hour. Labour consistently increased the minimum wage, but not as much as the Alliance and then NZ First (and the Greens) wanted. Basic coalition maths: get part of what you want, keep pressing for more.
So either National will change its view on the minimum wage, or the Maori Party will deliver less to its constituents than Labour. Hooray for the first, and welcome Nats on the road to Damascus. I'l believe it when I see it - and National's backers will hate it when they see it. ACT's reaction will be R18. But it's not going to happen, is it?
Multiply that policy conflict many times over, and you have the next three years.
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Maybe Phil Goff is just calling it as it its.
I'll agree and after all, that is now the job of opposition. Why is it so important for Key to get to Apec? Surely the forming of a tactical coalition is of greater importance for all Parties concerned so why is it that Key must fly out immediately? Don't we have the "horrors" (although " not Armaggedon")that Labour left us in to sort out?
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Maybe Phil Goff is just calling it as it its. Maybe he doesn't have his memory erased every three years, like so many commentators, and he can see where this will be heading, because he's seen it all before.
simon g.: Goff might make better use of his time actually having a good hard think about why he's the incoming leader of the Opposition today. Not that he seems particularly interested in doing so.
And could Phil display his fake psychic abilities on 'Sensing Murder"? Just saying.
It's nice to know you think the National Party could implode :)
Could do, but Key sure seems to have a better grip than Goff on the notion that we are born with two eyes, two ears and only one mouth; and they should be used in strict proportion.
Believe me, Sofie, I don't care if Goff flip flops and gaffes Labour into a nice long rest in opposition, with a dwindling number of allies. But a healthy democracy requires a genuinely strong opposition -- including leadership that brings a little more to the table than empty braggadocio .
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Re. "wickedly intelligent" Goff - in a late-80s Listener column Denis Welch described a conversation where Goff used words to the effect of "Well Denis, you and I have both been through University."
To which Welch noted: He's wrong. I haven't.However 'wicked' Goff's intelligence may be, it still appears to be tainted by a touch of smug complacency.
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Re. "wickedly intelligent" Goff - in a late-80s Listener column Denis Welch described a conversation where Goff used words to the effect of "Well Denis, you and I have both been through University."
To which Welch noted: He's wrong. I haven't.However 'wicked' Goff's intelligence may be, it still appears to be tainted by a touch of smug complacency.
Ha!
It is going to be interesting to see whether he can either overcome that or keep that in check. It's a liability and a turn-off. I'm reminded of something that Gordon Campbell wrote in one of his recent columns.:Someday, a PHD awaits some bright political science student who can trace the road to Helengrad, and the systematic erosion of Helen Clark’s public standing and popularity. With hindsight, going with the Greens and Maori Party after the 2005 election could have rejuvenated her administration, but the problems probably went deeper than that. At her zenith, Clark enjoyed wide, even global, respect for her intelligence, managerial skills, compassionate pragmatism and command of detail – but her performance was only rarely suffused with spontaneous warmth, or sparked genuine affection from the public. Therefore, by the time the pragmatism had curdled into a static sense of superiority – and Clark and Cullen could be the Bobbsey Twins of We-Know-Best - there was nothing left in the tank of public good will. (my emphasis)
One wonders whether Goff's also inherited this less appealing trait as well. Certainly it appears that way. As Craig said, whatever happens over the next three years will happen. It's no use reviewing the menu before you've started eating it yet. Goff may well be right in the long term- but he can't start crowing until the moment (if and when) it happens. It was pretty tactless in all respects.
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Irrespective of the merits of Goff's comments re: the MāP, I'd say he was taking a leaf out of Bob Tizard's book and calling a spade "a b---dy shovel".
4 or 5-headed monsters? Sounds a little like the Camera dei Deputati to me.
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Indeed, hence the rest of my comment about there being "question marks" around him! He seems to evoke a sense of entitlement at the moment, never a good look for a newly chosen leader of a party that's just been ousted out of Government.
I'm kind of struck by how many more words have been written about what he said than he actually said. Perhaps we should be wary of over-analysing.
Goff was hardly going to send his best wishes -- he is the Leader of the Opposition -- and Turia's response (accusing Goff of trying "dismantle" her party, among other things) wasn't temperate either. Whatever.
I personally think the Maori Party would have been mugs not to do a deal with National. It's a much easier decision for them than if they were in the position of effectively choosing the government.
That hardly means that Goff -- whose party won many more party votes in the Maori electorates than any other -- is forbidden to pass any comment that might offend Tariana Turia.
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Out of curiosity, what was the percentage that Labour won in the party vote in the Maori seats? I remember it being in the high 60s for one of them.
@RB: yeah, Turia hasn't exactly been temperate either. Not a good look from either side, really.
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I'm kind of struck by how many more words have been written about what he said than he actually said
Amen - I looked through the stories and only found these as his words:
"It has made this decision notwithstanding the fact that in every Maori seat, voters on the ground gave the majority of the party vote to Labour, outpolling National by six to one."
"The promises were betrayed and NZ First lost every Maori seat at the next election."For the opposition to question the moves of a party setting itself up in Government is hardly ground-breaking and his first point is certainly a valid one. Claims of colonial paternalism is absurd and demeaning to the Maori Party who should expect to be treated like any other political party.
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That hardly means that Goff -- whose party won many more party votes in the Maori electorates than any other -- is forbidden to pass any comment that might offend Tariana Turia.
Forbidden? Please, I encourage Goff to alienate as many potential allies as possible by treating them like innumerate numpties who can't read an election result. It's their call to make, and perhaps Goff could have kept his unsolicited (and rather self-serving) advice to himself.
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Gareth:
What the fuck does New Zealand First have to do with anything? Might me a little more pertinent to point out to Labour that they lost another Maori seat on Saturday night.
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Craig: I don't agree with Goff here and certainly think the Maori Party can (and will) sort there own views out (the fact they are at least holding hui is a step beyond many others) but I was a little surprised at how "appalled" some commentators seemed to be by the comments?
I don't enjoy pointless politicing (sp?) but enjoy hyperbole media even less...
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Speaking of deals, Key's comments re Kiwisaver after meeting with union leaders this morning have cheered me up a bit.
If they genuinely will take another look at how they've chosen to setup that scheme then I'll hold out hopes for setting it back on a decent footing... -
I don't know the details of what's on the table for the Maori Party, but if hui after hui are supporting it (Hone Harawira reckons 98% support), then it is possible that - assuming they deliver over the next 3 years - support might actually go up at the next election.
I agree that Goff has come across as patronising. Then again, this is the man who's style in the 80s was modelled after that paragon of officiousness - the traffic cop.
John key seems to be interested in consulting widely, which is very good to see. Does anyone think we would have seen this in the first week after an election won by Don Brash ?
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John key seems to be interested in consulting widely, which is very good to see.
Absolutely, I'm very pleasantly surprised - what are the odds he'll consult to the Greens on certain emmissions trading matters where they have such a good base of understanding?
Of course, consult != action so here's hoping it turns into policy action. Considering the common refrain that the Nanny State Left were only about consulting consulting consulting, you'd like to think it will... -
If we look back at the evidence of benefits to the enermy over the past two decades.
Labour has been the best friend to the NZDF since WWII. The Air Force Strike Farce was never used but the reequipping came under Labour has been massive. National let it rot away as they took their votes for granted.
National started and settled the big Treaty deals, while Labour kneejerked about letting Maori have their day in Court over the Foreshore & Seabed. Remeber much of our coast is privately owned by pakeha and is not impacted by this racist law.
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Then again, this is the man who's style in the 80s was modelled after that paragon of officiousness - the traffic cop.
Oh... the un-ironic 70's porn star 'tash, how I miss three!
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That hardly means that Goff -- whose party won many more party votes in the Maori electorates than any other -- is forbidden to pass any comment that might offend Tariana Turia.
I don't think he's forbidden at all. I just think it was bad politics.
Assuming Maori Party don't self-destruct, or get burnt by this deal, they're likely to be back in with five or more seats in three years.
Surely Goff's job is to be finding ways to make it so those seats are lining up next to Labour in 2011, not National.
It looked to me like he was still fighting the 2008 election (which is definitely done), rather than looking ahead to the 2011 one.
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I saw Goff on Lambton Quay (outside Farmers) about an hour ago. He was sporting a splendid royal blue silk tie.
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