Random Play: So You Wanna Be A Rock’n’Roll Star
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Much to my amusement and then disappointment I have followed some of the discussion here -- and I guess it proves why we can't seem to have an intelligent and focussed discussion about the New Zealand music industry, expectations etc as I outlined in the original blog.
As someone in the Rutles once said, he got hold of the wrong end of the stick and started beating about the bush with it. (I think it was the Rutles, I stand corrected and doubtless will be)
Anyone like to pick this one up and go back to the original topic? Or are we happy discussing the various merits of Kenny G, Chick Corea, Pat Metheny and others -- who don't seem to have too much to do with NZ music.
Focus people, focus!
Cheers.
(By the way we have a very large cat too. Righto, go for your life on that if you like. Maybe it's a metaphor?) -
Graham: You think your thread has gone off the beaten track? I came back to my dog attacks discussion ("Flashback") after a couple of days off, and find several people gathered around writing a play about potatoes, guinea pigs, cycling and Gestetner machines... seriously....
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merc,
Look Dory we're just trying to up your view count which frankly needed a little attention. We are paid thread view count boosters, work for very leetle, some thanks may be in order as you see your counter wiz past 4k.
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I don't know if there is any truth to this at all, but someone told me yesterday that Don't Dream It's Over only got to the top of the US charts on the back of some major payola. Or minor payola. Whatever. At any rate, they said it was one of the last pay-for-play successes of that era - before the more recent scandals of this one. But maybe it's just a big fat lie put out by Finn's enemies...
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Yeah allright Graham, I'll put in my two cents mate.
I found myself nodding my way through your post and like everyone else, I echo your statements. In fact it is nice to get some distance from the Kiwi penchant for picking out one statement and having a fit about it, and missing the point entirely. (Neil, not Finn..heh)
10 000 odd miles away from NZ and the Canadian music industry standards seem healthy for the most part.Seems to be industrious too. Allways a bunch of good bands and performers playing nearby. Obviously good quality (Arcade Fire, New Pornographers and so on)
However the radios still have to be forced to play Can content and people still tend to beleive that while Can bands are good and everything, they are not really as good as the stuff from over the border. Interestingly this was the prevalent attitude as I was growing up in Whangarei. (Kiwi music sucks bro) So while I agree that bands, like anyone wishing to succeed at anything, likely need to work their guts out, I am convinced there is still a need for the support.
And maybe sometimes that support needs to be there even if the music is a bit horrible. The whole idea of working hard at making good music is that it gets better right? So if you go to support a band four or five times and its still horrible maybe you give up but you did your bit.
You either lose four or five good friday nights when you could have been catching Fat Freddys Drop or the like, or you find yourself at the starting point of a great thing. "I was there when these guys were crap" you say to your mates from the nosebleeds in the bleachers. You also have the original presses of the horrible first attempts to brag about and sell on ebay to stalker fans.
Oh, hang on, I think I might have just picked something out and had a slight fit about it....What say you savages.
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Here ya go Graeme:
I think he was, in an off-the-cuff way, saying something that we need to hear more. The press releases about our bands at SXSW or playing a big Waitangi Day gig in London, or having a track added a TripleJ or flying to some Sydney-side MTV bash with a bunch of hangers-on need to be put into perspective.
I've been saying exactly that for years, and been denounced bitterly as well. How much of the kiwi hype in UK media was produced by ex-pat kiwis? Weren't we flying them (and any other blaggers they round up) down here to attend special 'conferences' and 'showcases' in return for them telling 'our media' how kiwi music was on the cusp of global success?
Pieter Whatsername from NZ Fashion Week obviously learned something, as they similarly fly in ex-pats and 'influential' (as in 'not really') media to tell us how good our frocks are. Good on Karen Walker who's doing what needs to be done to crack it internationally but does anyone really believe Madonna walked into a NY store and said "I must have these jeans"??Everyone in a band should read this blog and think about.
It's worth repeating, so I have. Graeme your blog is spot on, but unfortunately too big for a T Shirt print.
No twice told tales please! Eh?, oops, sorry!
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William,
It would be a miracle if Don't Dream didn't have some payola attached to it, but bear in mind, all it's competitors for that top slot also had that taint so the song played a big part..you can only put it on radio, the public desire to purchase needs to follow. The US pop charts are as corrupt as hell (ours are not that squeaky either). And Crowded House also suffered the misfortune of a change of management at Capitol which is why after DDIO they were more or less invisible in the US, and have been since.As an aside DDIO got to number two and the theory has always been that if they'd called it The Hey Now Song it would have got to one
Graham...I think the Kenny G's only came about because we were talking to issues raised in your point. It's been interesting here to get the Indonesian industry perspective on the much touted Blindspott SEA success...and they did make small inroads, which they never capitalised on
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Well I'll chip in again with my 2c (now actually worth about 0.5c after inflation and tax).
It's an interesting pick with using Bailter Space as an example Graham, the reason I say that is that they've always seem to be one of those NZ bands who are more interested in what they are doing that the attention that they get.
I remember being somewhat pissed off when the moved to the states, as I loved seeing them live and at the time thought it meant they were destined for big things. However the one thing I would say is Bailter Space, and Alistair in particular have always been quite realistic about their art. They know it's a small corner of the market that they are in, but if they'd stayed in NZ they would have had to go more mainstream to gain any further sort of recognition. I think it was more the media and fans who expected to see Bailter Space do "big things" overseas, they were more focused on doing what they'd always done but being more accesible to their actual market.
I've worked with a lot of musicians (some professional, some strictly amateur) who have gotten discouraged after not making the progress they wanted in the space of a year or two and throwing it all in - and I think thats one of the dangers of our current "hype" system - it encourages artists to think that if they haven't "made it" in a year or two theres no point.
Anyway thats all I've got at the moment without either repeating myself, sounding like a contrite idiot, or pealing off on another tangent!!
I've enjoyed this thread though!
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Mr Grigg must have some great stories about NZ Payola??? One I heard, way back when:
Robin Lambert, then the big cheese at Sounds, used to 'bet' Record Companies a VCR (or similar) that a song would go #1. They'd say "this is a great song Robyn, but you know kiwis ... it won't go #1[wink wink, nudge nudge]". Robyn would reply: "I think you're wrong, it's got #1 written all over it" and so on, until a bet was made. And shock horror the record company always lost that bet.NB ~ I don't actually know Lambert, or if this story is true or just myth. It may just have been tattle from a kiwi band disgruntled they weren't charting better. Or couldn't afford a VCR for the bet (they were expensive in those days)
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Robin was the greatest salesman I've ever met. Watched him in Sounds once when a guy came in to buy, I think, a new Iron Maiden album. Robin said he would be interested to know how the customer thought it stacked against their first three. The guy said he didn't have them..Robin pulled it away from him and said he wouldn't sell him the new album as it would not be right, since he didn't understand it's context. The guy left with the complete catalogue.
all sorts of interesting things used to go on upstairs in the Sounds office in K Rd
Charts...the second Mi-Sex album, due to a shipping problem, entered the NZ album charts at Number one....the day before it reached the shops. For most of their history NZ's charts bore no relationship to reality.
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NZ's charts bore no relationship to reality
Yep, when I did my time in the purgatory of music retail I used to look forward to the Thursday visit from the record companies with their free stuff. Muttonbirds The Heater (IIRC) straight to number 1? My arse.
I also remember the Warners CEO bitching about the practice at their industry Christmas Party when they were as bad as the rest.
It's an interesting pick with using Bailter Space as an example Graham, the reason I say that is that they've always seem to be one of those NZ bands who are more interested in what they are doing that the attention that they get.
I've often wondered about those bands under the mainstream radar who play & release records overseas on a regular basis. Graeme Jefferies springs to mind as an example. Is there a reasonable living to be made playing those fringes gloabally?
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merc,
They're Big in Germany, great NZ saying.
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I've often wondered about those bands under the mainstream radar who play & release records overseas on a regular basis. Graeme Jefferies springs to mind as an example. Is there a reasonable living to be made playing those fringes gloabally?
Well the issue really comes down to the market at the end of the day. One of the problems the NZ bands run into is that if their music doesn't have mass appeal then the market here is really too small to sustain them for long - where as in a larger population base it suddenly becomes a much easier prospect.
Bailter Space had always been quite well respected in their niche market overseas and I'm glad they continued on doing what they do - sometimes it's just the fact that we have so few people in our country that makes it not fesible for an artist to operate on a commercial level.
There is a living to be made playing the niche markets internationally - but like any other market you've still got to be up to the industry standard (so to speak) to make the headwa - but theres certainly more potential with the larger market.
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Getting back - as per Graham's request - to the original topic, I've got a story to add too. Back when Garageland were the thing here, I left the country. Not much later I was living in Yorkshire, and spotted the very same band playing a venue in York.
Said venue was the same one some stoner mates of mine had managed to get a gig at the week before - on the basis of a demo tape of them strumming a guitar, singing out of tune and hitting an ashtray with a pencil. And no, it wasn't an inspired piece of minimalism, it really was as crap as it sounds.
The place had a pretty small capacity, and wasn't really any kind of regular touring venue for international acts - you'd get local bands and the occasional out-of-towner playing there. So seeing Garageland on the bill was a rather major surprise, especially considering advertising for their album had been all over the telly here before I left...
Graham's point that success in NZ doesn't seem to translate to entry anywhere above the ground floor elsewhere is a well-made one. I suppose the question it would drive me to ask would be this:
What advantage is there for a committed band in expending serious time and effort to succeed locally in NZ rather than just taking their ideas overseas to start with?
Not suggesting there are none, but I'm interested to see what the responses would be to the question.
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Just me ten cents worth, and a bit late but oh well……
Hard work will always be the first and most crucial step to taking you where you want to go, be it commercial success mainstream or otherwise (depending on your definition of success), making the kind of music you want to with no compromise, developing and honing musicianship or whatever. It definitely doesn’t guarantee financial rewards or security, but it will certainly lay a good foundation for some kind of career/legacy, whichever route you take.
As part of that ethic - go overseas for experience, play as much as you can around NZ, work with other musicians, record yourself, record in a studio, build contacts, play in more than one band at a time, learn other instruments etc. Get a full time job as well, try doing what I’ve just said in the last sentence and find out how hard things can be with and without employment. Self fund yourself, seek funding from others, it’s all possible to do. Again, it may not lead to financial reward (probably won’t) but it will help you define the kind of path you want to go down.
As for the question of why should a band exert themselves in NZ in the first place? Well, aside from the invaluable experience gained from all the points listed above unless at the very start you have sound financial backing, contacts or otherwise you’ll just place yourself in another country, in exactly the same situation you would have been back home without any kind of support network at all, more than likely in a more hostile environment.
Graham’s original post actually highlights a problem with the way the industry promotes itself more than anything else. Celebrate success within this country by all means, but lets not lose sight of what the reality is outside of NZ – something the couple of debates going on at the moment have highlighted well. Perhaps the nz music month should target global markets rather than local (if it’s not doing so already)?
People like Simon, who has an amazing amount of experience in the industry, are far more qualified to talk about engineering and mastering than myself but one thing I would say is that perhaps there has been a mismatch of resources to releases – one or two engineers may end up doing most of the recordings within the commercial industry to the detriment of the styles of music they are working on. Most bands have to rely on self funding for recording (nothing wrong with diy mind you!) which tends to propagate the use of friends, cheap resources and self taught engineering. I don’t know enough about current studio prices but one band who recorded overseas said that it was cheaper to record in LA than it was in York st 2.
Sorry if that was all a bit rambling.....
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unless at the very start you have sound financial backing, contacts or otherwise you’ll just place yourself in another country, in exactly the same situation you would have been back home without any kind of support network at all, more than likely in a more hostile environment.
That's true - but on the other hand, considering how few bands in NZ get started as a full-time concern anyway... living away from home doesn't seem to defeat the myriad kiwis who ship out to London every year in getting work and staying alive. Having a band at the same time isn't a killer workload. My flatmate in Auckland was in four, and worked six days a week.
Obviously the question is a bit of a hypothetical though - not everybody is going to ship out, so there will always be bands locally. But the more tempting it is to leave for a committed and talented musician, the lower we'll have to expect the local levels of commitment and talent are going to be, no?
Getting back to the leaving thing... let's assume it takes a musician 4-10 years of sustained hard work to get somewhere visible in the NZ music industry. Is it really going to be harder to just start doing that elsewhere than to do it here, and then repeat many of the same challenges again later anyway? Support networks and familiar environments are good, but two years in a new place will give you that anyway to a degree. It's not a trivial thing to do, but playing music isn't a trivial thing to do either - and the people who're going to succeed internationally aren't going to be the ones who're easily flustered by a challenge.
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3410,
So, is the former Myspaceman a cynical attempt to separate desparate and gullible artists from their money or a genuine, though dodgy, way to get your nose ahead of the pack?
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Myspace has, essentially become so overcrowded with wannabe acts that it's almost worthless as a tool.
Last year 75,000 albums were released...these figures are fascinating
One-third, or 25,000, were digital-only releases, and 95% of those digital-only albums sold fewer than 100 units. The 2,900 digital-only albums released by the four majors accounted for 40% of digital sales.
and
• Less than 90 titles accounted for 40% of 2006 new release sales. About 1,000 albums made up 80% of all new release sales. Three-fourth of all new release titles sold fewer than 100 units.
There is a powerpoint link there worth viewing if you have the time.
Clearly it's still about, and alway has been, that elusive hit single, or key track, to pull yourself out of the crowded morass at the end of the long tail. Nobody notices anything or anybody on MyFox regardless of what bot you pay to increase your numbers.
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<quote>Clearly it's still about, and alway has been, that elusive hit single, or key track,</quote.
or, to be clear, that unstintingly supportive live base you've built up over years of relentless gigging...which is why bands like Rush (god save us all) can still get top ten albums in the USA in 2007
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Three-fourth of all new release titles sold fewer than 100 units.
Which suggests that much music being released is in the same basket as 'vanity publishing'. Rather depressing for the musicians I imagine.
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3410,
Rather depressing for the musicians I imagine.
Yep. Likewise this:
In 2006 [...] 650,000 tracks were downloaded only once.
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cheers for the read fullas...
...agree about the mastering/engineering and lack of producers with balls to say to an artist' sorry that wasn't quite the goods lets do that again'
bands aren't really my thing, don't like guitars or the standard 4 piece sound and I reckon that whole lofi sound is just an excuse for cant be arsed...
...electronica and hiphop is my thing and in those I think we got some real talent, always have. It's a pity the powers that be were never or aren't interested in pushing them as much as the indy guitar pop bands or angsty guitar chix
I know it's not terribly constructive but fuck nz on air and that horrid little man running it, now if only we still had a vinyl press in NZ...
...werd to neil finn
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sound production is as important as the song itself..!!.. Look at the dawn raid stuff coming out, it has a very poorly produced sound, yet if dawn raid had gone to the effort of a good production some of their singles may have been succesful internationally....
worse still , or more tragic is nz reggae group katchafire's production skills ..Whoever produced their stuff needs to be shot..they have 1 or 2 good songs their best track is "giddy up"..but the sound quality is baaad..i even bought their new cd called party pack which is like a greatest hits compile . On the cover it stated that all tracks had been remastered including "giddy up"...yet it still sounded YUK!
So if simon grigg thinks that we do have what it takes in NZ for good sound production , then why are a lot of NZ musicians turning out such badly produced sound? -
So if simon grigg thinks that we do have what it takes in NZ for good sound production , then why are a lot of NZ musicians turning out such badly produced sound?
Heres my take...
...crap sound cards, shitty monitors and audio engineering tutors who weren't schooled in the analogue days mentoring students who then go out in the industry with bad ears and producers who cant draw that x factor performance out of an artist in the studio
time spent apprenticing in a cutting and mastering house for vinyl would do most engineers a world of good...
...and about that dawnraid stuff. Why Aaradhna... Why did you have to massacre that betcha by golly tune ??? and who thought it was a good idea to fund the video. Time for shake up at NZoA get rid of the BS to start with
[url/http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=epkVc1pPhm8]
savage-swing is all good though.
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