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Speaker: Pt 2: Terrorism Charges -- What's Involved

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  • Bob Munro,

    Michael - my understanding of the Christchurch raid was that police were looking for a person, rather than searching for evidence. You don't need a warrant to knock on someone's door and ask if Tame is there.

    Yes - and Frances Mountier reported that the police were from Wellington and unknown to them and that may have accounted for the lack of politeness and level of aggression shown.

    Christchurch • Since Aug 2007 • 418 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    Graeme we'll have to agree to disagree on "I do think TV3 were just lucky."
    The leaks in this are all planned and so too TV3 coverage. One here & there sure but every news story has a new source vouching for the veracity of totally incredible claims.
    Napalm or was it a molotov or was it paint thinner for Tames paint brushes? No it was napalm which is rather specific.

    I must say my dealings with Chch Cops has always been pretty good.
    So yeah boo ya sucks to Wlg bobbies

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    For the purposes of this Act, a terrorist act is carried out if any 1 or more of the following occurs:
    (a) planning or other preparations to carry out the act, whether it is actually carried out or not:
    (b) a credible threat to carry out the act, whether it is actually carried out or not:
    (c) an attempt to carry out the act:
    (d) the carrying out of the act.

    Right from day one Broad was saying the reason they acted when they did was because they "perceived a credible threat" so it would appear that that is the section of the TSA they intended to use. I still think it more than a coincidence that the raids took place just before the second reading of the amendment to the act. however, I still find it hard to fathom the reason. Could it be that the police were trying to embarrass the Govt. for what they were doing to Rickards and Dewar et al? If so then maybe we should send in Mallard to bop Broad on teh snotter.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • johnno,

    Michael, as a cameraman and someone who has talked to Cam about the stuff he got on Abel Smith street, I can set your mind at rest (I hope). Looking at the raw vision, it's quite clear that the cops tolerated the camera for a little bit, but as soon as Cam got close to the house and could actually see over the fence and shoot the door being broken down, the cops told him quite firmly to fuck off - which is kinda standard. That's why the rest of the stuff is from across the road. You might notice that a gentleman in civilian clothing goes to some lengths to hide his face as he walks into the house. Presumably, he works in a spookier part of the police. Cam got some wonderful stuff, but be assured, the cops NEVER tip off an operation of this type to the media. At best, we are merely tolerated, at worst, we're a mouthy obstacle that potentially puts their operation in jeopardy.

    A successful visual media organisation will go to quite large lengths to get good pictures. For the camera operator, its a bit of a lottery in these circumstances. One day you might get great pictures, and a bit of a growl from the cops. Other days, you'll get arrested, as happened to another TV3 cameraman during an anti-bypass demonstation nearby to Abel Smith street.

    wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 111 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Could it be that the police were trying to embarrass the Govt. for what they were doing to Rickards and Dewar et al?

    Well, the actions against Rickards and Dewar etc were taken by the police, and would have been signed off by Broad most likely. The government didn't interfere in the decisions to prosecute at all, and as far as I'm aware, they have no power to do so.

    And you wouldn't need to ask him to know that Broad and a heap of other cops have been positively spewing over Rickards and Dewar etc. It will have been the bane of the Commissioner's life for the past year, and a conviction of Rickards would have made his life much easier now with the reinstatement etc issue.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • reece palmer,

    Hi Public Address,
    I haven't posted in ages which some of you may consider a great favour so,
    *lodges cotton wool in cheek*
    "Now maybe you can do me a favour"
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    and vote for us I'd be ever so greatful. You have to create an account to vote which will cost nothing but a little of you time and an email addy. You get to watch a video which is based around our school and stars some of our kids and some guy who shall remain nameless, heh.
    P.S. I'm going to spam this message on loads of threads and if this irritates you, I do apologise.

    the terraces • Since Nov 2006 • 298 posts Report Reply

  • David MacGregor,

    Naming someone a 'terrorist' in New Zealand should be viewed with ULTIMATE gravity. It is the worst appellation you can assign to an individual in the modern world. When a government does it then every other government listens.

    No-one knows what the details of the charges against the recent accused are. But we need to. The idea that justice must be seen to be done is critical.

    I have a feeling that the New Zealand taxpayer is looking at the biggest compensation payout in its history. It will be huge and will find support from the United Nations.

    The government cannot continue to argue it is 'a Police matter'. The police minister cannot continue to argue it is 'an operational matter'.
    Accusation of this magnitude have to come from the very top. The buck has to stop somewhere.

    This action which has been conducted with flat-footed stupidity. It was, by definition, an act of terror on the the people of New Zealand. Creating hysteria, as it has done, brings disgrace to New Zealand's standing in the world when once we were famous for being the 'decent' society.

    If the police are left to make these bizarre and consequential decisions about national security then we should all be vigilant.

    Auckland, New Zealand • Since Feb 2007 • 41 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Andrew,

    I have a feeling that the New Zealand taxpayer is looking at the biggest compensation payout in its history.

    Really? Bigger than the Tainui payout? Bigger than the Ngai Tahu claim?

    Hamiltron - City of the F… • Since Nov 2006 • 900 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    Good point David.
    When travelling to the states they do ask about arrests not only convictions - so even if they drop charges now none of these guys are off to Disneyland anytime soon.

    Popped along to the Greens last night & Keith said the SIS briefing was nowhere near as alarmist as the cops to the media.

    Didn't Phil Goff cap payouts recently?

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    When travelling to the states they do ask about arrests not only convictions - so even if they drop charges now none of these guys are off to Disneyland anytime soon.

    Since they were arrested on firearms rather than terrorism charges (of which none have yet been forthcoming) I think that might be less of an issue. The only use of the terrorism legislation so far has been its inclusion on the search warrants, and I don't think you're asked to declare those.

    More of a worry would be that (given recently reported budgets for such things) the US can probably afford to have somebody reading the Herald who can add some names to a few lists somewhere.

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • rodgerd,

    Naming someone a 'terrorist' in New Zealand should be viewed with ULTIMATE gravity. It is the worst appellation you can assign to an individual in the modern world. When a government does it then every other government listens.

    Someone, somewhere will defend a terrorist as a freedom fighter. I'd rather be called a terrorist than a pedophile.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    Didn't Phil Goff cap payouts recently?

    No.

    I suspect you're thinking of the Prisoners and Victims Claims Act. It doesn't apply to this situation.

    And in the situations it does apply it doesn't limit payouts.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3202 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Yeah, I wouldn't be volunteering to go through US airspace if I had the terrorist label. I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons the defence have been going for name suppression.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • ThoughtSpur,

    Rogerd said:

    "Someone, somewhere will defend a terrorist as a freedom fighter. I'd rather be called a terrorist than a pedophile."

    To the first point I agree. I quoted the excellent book Unspeak on my blog recently

    'Asymmetric warfare' is the term employed by the US Military for fighting people who don't line up properly to be shot at: on one side you have battalions of American infantry, marines, tanks and aircraft; and on the other you have terrorist, or guerrillas, or militants, or insurgents. But the more revealing asymmetry lies in the giving of names in the 'war on terror'. We are soldiers; you are terrorists. Asymmetric warfare means: we are fighting a war; but you are not. And so when we capture you, do not expect to be a prisoner of war. You will be a terrorist suspect, an illegal combatant, a ghost detainee. And so the deliberate blurring of categories in the phrase 'war on terror' led straight to Abu Ghraib.

    To the second point I'd rather not be wrongfully named as either a terrorist or a pedophile. And if I was I would want there to be a consequence for my accuser. The truth, if such a thing exists, is that mud sticks and most of us don't have access to 'perfect knowledge'.
    Depending on your bias you will believe the most convenient truth for your world-view.

    BTW I intensely dislike the Tuhoe tactics etc but I hardly think it warrants going to 'war' with them - even a phony war waged in the media.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2007 • 15 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    Finn - The guys at LAX see themselves as the frontline in the war on terror.
    A Polish school girl on exchange to NZ had an entry visa for the USA but not a transit visa. She was accompanied by her host NZ family & working on the correct advice of their agt. She was held in prison with druggies & the like only to be deported from the US.
    Everything was correct with no threat from a teenage school girl, but she got treated like a criminal.
    These guys & girls are going nowhere fast.

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Considering there has been a bit of biffo going on among the higher echelons, I was wondering what would happen if someone, say winston peters was to give the PM a slap in the face. Would the treason act be considered? Or would that be kept in-house as a privileges matter.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4310 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    I was wondering what would happen if someone, say winston peters was to give the PM a slap in the face.

    I think she could take him.

    A lot better than her husband could anyway.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Sara Noble,

    "I intensely dislike the Tuhoe tactics etc"

    What Tuhoe tactics are you referring to?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2007 • 127 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Paul Buchanon's latest input is an interesting read.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4310 posts Report Reply

  • kmont,

    The Herald has a story up, "Police 'violated civil rights' at Ruatoki here

    I think it is pretty damning. Of all the questionable things that the police did, the taking of photos is the part that I cant stomach. I know they have done it before but that doesn't make it ok. If I was searched and photographed at a roadblock in NZ I don't think my view of the police would ever recover.

    wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 485 posts Report Reply

  • Sara Noble,

    It gets a lot worse than that - real intimidation and humiliation of women and children. Wait for Williams' counter-suits.

    Apparently the Attorney General has undertaken to have his decision out re ST charges this week.

    And again to "ThoughtSpur", what are the Tuhoe tactics you disagree with?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2007 • 127 posts Report Reply

  • kmont,

    Hi Sara Noble, I agree that there were worse things in that article I linked to. For me personally, it is the image of being asked to get out of my car and be photographed in front of it with a number that gets me. This in itself is enough to get exercised about. This is where I feel frustrated with the 'wait and see' types on PAS.

    wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 485 posts Report Reply

  • Margaret B,

    Kowhai, I agree, especially with your last sentence, but I'm giving up on continuing to argue about it in the other thread :-(

    Since Oct 2007 • 59 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Hmmm. For me the problem is the large number of different (though related) issues tangled up in this case. On the photographing and the damage to peoples houses and the surveillance, I feel no need to wait. On marching to protest the innocence of the detained, mebbe. On the problems with have with remand, for all remand prisoners, not just these ones - no waiting required.

    I have promised myself that some time over the next few days I'm going to write down and review everything I think about this whole mess, just so I can get the Stephen Judd party line straight.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    Sara, What I like about Tame Iti is his attempt to develope a sense of purpose within many who are otherwise lost.

    I do not believe he has anything to do with terrorisim to any degree as all of his actions to date have been nonviolent upon any person. Guns etc have been used within the cultural context of Tuhoe with no threat to life.

    Did Paul Bucanon say the grenade launcher could be a spud gun?!

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

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