Posts by Hadyn Green
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Sex is a continuum, not a binary. Saying "oh, tough luck, they just can't compete" is basically demanding that anyone who doesn't fit neatly into a gender binary buggers off until we start having co-ed top-level sports (you'll be waiting a while).
I agree that gender is a spectrum rather than a binary. But let's say that Semenya is outside of the current parameters for female competitors, would you let her compete with the women or not? And if so, how would you explain the decision to her opposition?
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I am frustrated by the double standard though, less-attractive male superstars will still get endorsments where their female counterparts wont - or certainly not as many or as much.
Are you talking about Rafeal "Chipmunk" Nadal?
Where are Brad Thorn’s endorsements?
That's a fair question, except that we're in New Zealand. Our markets aren't big enough for real endorsement deals. Beyond the Silver Ferns (New World, F&P, McCains) and All Blacks ads (Powerade, Coke, Weetbix) there aren't too many individual options.
I imagine that Brad Thorn (if he is after that kind of money) will be plugging some local Canterbury caryard or building firm. Remember when Merhts was in those ads where he got in a lift with some guy?
(I think Thorne is in the new Weetbix ad btw)
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Meanwhile, Semenya is more manly than most women, although certainly not most athletic women, so she is questioned.
It's the middle bit of that sentence that makes all the difference right? She's not outwardly more muscular than the more extreme female athletes, so why test her? There must be other factors at play that those closer to the sport know.
So the argument isn't about her being singled out, it's about how most people heard about the issue, saw a picture and instantly assumed she must be a guy.
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"Gosh Dan you're playing a little too well. You're not on steroids by any chance?"
And if he was then his Jockey ads wouldn't be very impressive
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My point is no one is suggesting that because he had his hair chemically straightened, he's too much of a girl to play rugby.
But you wouldn't. You would say "Gosh Dan you're playing a little too well. You're not on steroids by any chance?" Because while there are the boundaries for women, there are also boundaries for the men, but both of them are upper bounds. Doping agencies and athletics organisations tend not to care if you have less muscle than you should have.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to derail this thread
Please, most of my posts end with a great big break in the tracks anyway (to continue the train metaphor) :)
You ignore the sexualisation of women's sport at your peril, I think. Female athletes are expected to be much better looking than their male counterparts - see Flo Jo et al.
I don't ignore it. Though I don't think it's a common occurrence in athletics. At least the track parts, recently pole vaulters and high jumpers have been added to the list of "hot athletes". The issue I have with it is that the best athletes may not get the most money. For example Kournikova sucked really badly, but could earn more in a tournament than the eventual winner just for drawing in crowds.
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It is a feminist issue, because a lot of people are basically saying "she's too good to be a woman. Oh, and she looks like a dude." (cue sniggering and offensive jokes.)
Yeah, but that issue is nothing to do with the sport. That's about people being asshats at every possible opportunity (and I would say that it's not a solely feminist issue either).
In most sports, we celebrate people with genetic talents and abilities, don't we? Why should she be any different?
Yeah it's a good point, but I don't see why it's a feminist one as opposed to a biological issue. As I said above: "As long as you have separate women's and men's events then there needs to be a clear boundary between the two. Where you set that boundary seems to be the best point of argument"
I suppose if you look at it from the other side then you have to ask, is Semenya a genetically enhanced woman or a genetically hindered man?
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Haydn: I'm not suggesting Bolt takes steroids, my point was about normal variability of hormones from one male to another. If, say, he naturally had more testosterone than his competitors, would that give him an unfair advantage?
Yeah I know, that's what the T/E ratio looks at. If your ratio is higher than 6:1 then you have more testosterone than is allowed in athletics competition. If Bolt's was say 8:1 then he would undergo tests to see if he was on performance enhancing drugs and if not then he's free to run. The thing with Bolt's levels (or indeed those of any male athlete) is that if they are proved be from natural causes, then he can still compete.
Wow, I really do believe you may have missed the point of many feminist comments on this issue. You don't seem to have made much of an effort to unpack the kind of ideologies behind why she was targeted and how she has been treated in media coverage and by her fellow competitors.
You're right about how she has been treated in the media and by her competitors. The other runners will be especially harsh, but then again they'll be the cause of the accusation, so they can be expected to be.
She doesn't fit a Western stereotype of feminine, therefore her gender is questioned
And I think that's where the argument is pointing in the wrong direction. At the world athletics champs you get a lot of women who don't fit the "Western stereotype of feminine". And a lot of those women won gold medals. So if Semenya has been accused of not being completely female I would suggest it's not just on a whim because she looks a little bit like a man.
The media coverage has been sensationalistic and full of spurious commentary from people who seem keen to make assumptions about her before test results were even available. There seems to have been little concern at all for how all this might be making an 18 year old young woman feel.
You know it's the media right? Not to sound glib but when the story is "800m winner to undergo gender test" then you should know that the coverage from most quarters is going to be incredibly offensive. Which is why I only trusted Science of Sport on the matter (an athletics blog written by two doctors based in Cape Town).
If there is a feminist argument here I think it's more about the thresholds for athletes competing in women's events. As long as you have separate women's and men's events then there needs to be a clear boundary between the two. Where you set that boundary seems to be the best point of argument.
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Oh and PS, has anyone been worried about Usain Bolt's testosterone levels? Is anybody rushing to test him in case he has a hormonal advantage? If it doesn't matter in his case, why does it matter in Semenya's?
Nobody is refusing to race with him just because he's freakishly gifted.
They have been worried about Bolt. His testosterone levels will have been repeatedly tested to ensure he doesn't exceed the 6:1 ratio which would mean he had (most likely) taken some kind of steroid hormone.
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But the original comparison was between the Currie Cup and the NPC, and I’d say the CC, if anything, is the more even of the 2.
Easily, the NPC (in it's various incarnations) has been one of the most unequal competitions for years. It's either Canterbury or Auckland, with Wellington recently. And occasionally Waikato shows up too.