Posts by Chris Waugh
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Hard News: Diverse Auckland: are we…, in reply to jh,
Auckland’s main ethnic groups 2021 (projections)
European and Other 48%
Asian 25%So Asians are in no greater a danger of becoming a majority in Auckland than any kind of expat in Beijing in the next few years.
Kiwis are being excluded from the property market by the high cost of real estate.
And while I've read some people blaming that on immigration, and others on the Chinese, both immigrants and those who then disappear back to China, I've also read plenty saying that the reality is rather more complex and the role played by immigration or the Chinese is really quite small. The tone of the comments suggests that it isn't really immigration driving up house prices.
You don’t like evolutionary psychology. Evolutionary psychologists say:
For good reason. Got a cite for that quotation? Because it looks like another good reason for me to be wary of evolutionary psychology. If humans really evolved in small, monocultural bands constantly at war with each other because Other, then please explain the huge amount of exchange between cultures throughout history. How did Christianity enter Europe, or Buddhism China? Why did paper, silk, tea, rice, gunpowder and the compass spread out of China if these small, monocultural bands were so set in their ways they could only fight each other? Likewise, how could railways have entered China? Cixi was very much against them at first, but even that arch-conservative with a hefty xenophobic streak was sold on their benefits. Sure, people learn a set of values early on in life and do like to hang out with others who share those values, but I would argue that precious few people become so rigidly fixed into one value system they can't cope with others with different values.
but dumping a whole population and foreign culture on us is a bit much.
Eh? Really? It's all being done by force? Last time I was in NZ everybody was going about their lives as they saw fit.
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Hard News: Diverse Auckland: are we…, in reply to jh,
it depends on your definition of racism ?
No. Just the usual dictionary definition.
And what of the effects on the culture of New Zealand’s working classes of mass migration. How many people these days have hens or grow their own vegetables?
How is that even remotely relevant? Are you seriously trying to suggest that it's Asian immigration that stopped people raising hens or growing veges? There couldn't possibly be any other explanations for that?
The Maori case is used (wrongly) to justify a further colonisation of Pakeha: “you did it to them so it is only fair that it is done to you”
Really? First time I ever read anything like that. And it's utter nonsense. You can't claim to be being colonised when you continue to hold all the power and privilege in society and your so-called colonisers are held on the outer.
First you could convince me why population increase is good policy and then why I should welcome people with a different culture and language, rather than people who will integrate faster and speak the same language.
Oh, of course. No need for you to put up a coherent argument to support your point of view. Alright, on the negative side: Because refusing to welcome people just because they are somehow Different or Other is petty and narrow-minded and only serves to perpetuate conflict. On the more positive side, there's the variety alluded to in the comments on restaurants upthread, but of course, it's more than just food - there's extra variety in terms of festivals, lifestyles, religions and philosophies, and many other aspects of life. Variety is good because no one culture has a monopoly on truth, and exposure to many different ideas allows us the opportunity to compare and mix and match. And this comparing and mixing and matching has been going on throughout history - it would seem to me that ideas of a fixed Us and unchanging, monolithic Them didn't really rise until the 19th century. Sure, tribalism has been around so long as there's been mammals, but historically people have been as good at trade as at war, and it seems to me that the 19th century rise of Romanticism, thence Nationalism, thence..... is what a lot of this opposition to immigration and multiculturalism stems from.
You mentioned Dutch. Dutch is a separate language from English. Closely related, sure, but if you're really going to go down the "integrate faster and speak the same language" route, you're going to have to sweep an awful lot of European migrants under the carpet.
“For migrants from China, issues of access to a vibrant Chinese community were very important."
Funny, because expats here in Beijing, including (perhaps especially?) East Asians like Koreans and Japanese, do exactly the same thing. In fact, I have even heard two white New Zealanders boast (yes, boast) about how many years they've lived in China without learning any Chinese beyond what they need to get between home, work, and the expat hangouts and buy beer and cigarettes. But tell me, please, why should people attempt to integrate when they are subject to racist vitriol simply because of the colour of their skin? The Asian immigration debate is especially ludicrous in NZ considering the first Chinese arrived in NZ long before my ancestors, yet I can walk down any street in NZ without anyone questioning my place in NZ society, and yet Chinese-looking people are asked how long they've been in NZ simply because of the way they look, even if they were born in NZ and speak only NZ English.
that sounds like a straw man argument
No, that's a real life argument. I've heard that myself more than once. Worse, I think, is racists trying to justify their racism by saying "Oh, but everybody's at least a little bit racist". Again, not a strawman but something real people actually say. If you want to present a reasonable objection then please, by all means, do. So far you have not.
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Hard News: Diverse Auckland: are we…, in reply to jh,
humans have a natural preference for people like themselves
That would explain the frequent outbreaks of tribal warfare in Europe. Ukraine being the latest case in point - though, of course, it hasn't quite got to actual warfare yet.
The phrase "evolutionary psychologists" never inspires much confidence, unfortunately, but I did notice that abstract talked about "in-group" vs. "out-group", so nothing to do with racism at all, and the principle is likely to apply to political parties or multi-ethnic religious groups as much as to ethnic groups.
back then the size, the pace, the rationale and the effects.” were different.
Well, of course. But "since the 19th century" covers an awfully large slice of "back then", and the tense I used suggests quite strongly "from then up until and including now". Still, the size, pace and effects of immigration in the 1840s, '50s and '60s had a lot of Maori worried about the effects to the point where they concluded the Brits had broken the Treaty and so they were justified in taking up arms. We know what happened after that.
Growing on growth seems to be a rather silly economic policy, sure. But your comments seem to suggest that growing on Asian growth is somehow bad immigration policy. Why is that?
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Hard News: Diverse Auckland: are we…, in reply to jh,
And yet since the 19th century NZ has had quite a diverse range of immigrants, most (but certainly not all) of them pale-skinned until fairly recently, but all bringing a variety of cultures. Somehow pale-skinned diversity seems to fly under the radar and nobody much worries about "the size, the pace, the rationale and the effects."
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Hard News: Diverse Auckland: are we…, in reply to jh,
I remember thinking as the numbers of Asians increased “well it is good that they will be a sufficiently large population to stand up for themselves”, now I watch with alarm
So..... the traditional pale skinned immigrants don't bother you?
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Two more.
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And some more.
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Some early signs of spring.
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Is brown and white ok?
And closer up.
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Hard News: Diverse Auckland: are we…, in reply to alobar,
I’m sure lots of rascists have mates whose background they ignore , but still generalise about other races or cultures as a group.
Racists are weird. There's what DeepRed says about covert racism. But overt racists? I never could figure out why I meet so many white supremacists in China. Do they somehow not notice that precious few people in China are white? Why would they deliberately put themselves in a country full of people they despise by virtue of them looking different? And then there's the racists with Chinese girlfriends, even wives, who happily sit down and loudly bitch about how shit China is and Chinese people are right in front of said Chinese significant other. I'm sure you could rinse and repeat for any other mostly not white country, or expats in any country whose majority is of a different skin colour.
