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Speaker: Copyright Must Change

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  • jon_knox,

    Another Kim Hill interview on the subject of Water Resourcing, off topic, but I think there are some pretty interesting (structural) parallels, such as the need for an integrated approach.

    I probably need to listen to Kim's interview of Prof Lessig again, but I wish she'd asked some probing questions regarding the range of alternatives to the current copyright situation.

    Osterreich • Since Nov 2006 • 461 posts Report Reply

  • jon_knox,

    Have just watched the Lessig at TED link that Jason provided way up-thread.

    That presentation is even more compelling/coherent around the need for change, despite similarities with the Auckland presentation....and provides a bit more insight regarding why Prof Lessig is heading off to deal with the corrupting of Congress.

    Osterreich • Since Nov 2006 • 461 posts Report Reply

  • jon_knox,

    Here's another interesting Lessig article from Wired a couple of years back, but relevant in NZ because of the Freebeer launch from Artspace this week.

    Osterreich • Since Nov 2006 • 461 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    sometimes lessig is not more, it's actually less (cymbal crash, original recording, not sampled)

    sorry, I'll get my coat.....

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • jon_knox,

    The Guardian has an article today on the subject of copyright infringement and the heavy-handed tactics that seem to follow.

    Osterreich • Since Nov 2006 • 461 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    And the Herald touches on Apple and DRM.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16996 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    The Guardian has an article today on the subject of copyright infringement and the heavy-handed tactics that seem to follow

    seems if you ignore Getty they go away.

    And why are these people using uncleared pictures in their bought and paid for commercial work?
    I didn't know it wasn't free doesn't really stand up as an argument. You know where you get your images from.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    Just picked up a link to a presentation by Ian Rogers, the CEO of TopSpin - it's a speech he gave to the GRAMMY MusicTech Summit 08. Well worth the read.

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    Yeah, I loved what they did with the Eno / Byrne collaboration. Although it didn't exactly see the world on fire (it was never going to) it was another worthy signpost to what is possible, especially for legacy artists.

    There is nothing he says which has more truth to it than:

    Instead of doing a 360 deal with a label artists are able to do a 360 deal with themselves and choose their business partners based on who is going to add the most value.

    And clearly the partner able to add the most value ain't a label with a declining volume and market muscle. Why anyone would sign a 360 deal with a major label is beyond me. The major gap in his theory though is the marketing gap. Which requires upfront cash, quite a bit of it, from someone. Not everyone, in fact very few acts, want to be niche no matter how big the niche and that's an inconvenient truth that is usually sidestepped.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Making a profit when the price tag says zero

    To follow the money, you have to shift from a basic view of a market as a matching of two parties - buyers and sellers - to a broader sense of an ecosystem with many parties, only some of which exchange cash.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16996 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    what they did with the Eno / Byrne collaboration.

    cleverly side step actually giving it away cos you pay for your streaming intenet broad band, and the bandwidth to stream it, and you can listen to it as much as you like so long as you only want to listen to it from a place that has broad band access.

    and from your blog

    that from Radiohead’s point of view, which really was the only one that mattered

    a touch on the naive side simon.
    when discussing radioheads free download model radiohead are not the center of the universe, and other points of view that mattered were the people that came after radiohead, the precedent it set and the longevity of the model.
    nice that radiohead got richer and more famous of it but that was hardly the interesting aspect of the case." band gets rich" is hardly a new story. "new model tried, here are the results and the prognosis of the stability of the model" is a much more important angle.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    can all income be derived from advertising?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    a touch on the naive side simon.

    no Rob, only if they were working on a plan for the ages. They were not, they were working on a plan for Radiohead's album. Nothing else matters. The model is neither here nor there for them.

    Haven't we been over this several times.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    if they were working on a plan for the ages.

    you're response to critism of their model has been it worked for them and there's is the only point of view that matters, taking a step back from their personal victory there is the point of view that looks at this experiment as a sustainable and viable business model. you're saying that not an important analysis to make. I think that's the most important analysis to make and on that level radioheads experiment was a failure because it proved that under an honesty system the public an not be relied to act honorably.
    Radiohead reaped the reward of novelty, they used up most of that value and what's left is a void of people trying to figure out the next best move cos radiohead didn't discover the "second coming of christ", they made themselves some cash, they expanded their own profile and they consumed the novelty of the model so the second, third and forth people to try it will yield exponentially worse results.

    mark di somma's comments in sasha's linked article make the most sense

    There's nothing wrong with using giveaways to establish scale and demand as long as you recognise those giveaways for what they are: marketing expenditure, not the start of a new way of doing things."

    Radiohead's experiment worked for them this once, and good for them, that's nice, but it's wrong to paint it as a roaring success when seen in light of the bigger picture. it's a use once novelty and its just been used. no great savior model for the desperate media owners here unfortunately.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    taking a step back from their personal victory there is the point of view that looks at this experiment as a sustainable and viable business model. you're saying that not an important analysis to make.

    Rob lets agree to disagree on this

    The Mark di Somma quote, as far as I can see works both ways but suffice to say that I think both the Eno / Byrne and Radiohead experiments ofter more of a way forward, or at least a sliver of an inkling of a germ of an idea where it might go than any variations on DRM, s92, RIAA lawsuits, and three strikes have come with cosmic light year of to date.

    As much as that goes, and, yes, from the band's POV, it was a roaring success.

    But I ain't gonna go round and round on this again.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    or at least a sliver of an inkling of a germ of an idea

    :) I'll take that as confirmation that you are ever the optimist, although in these cases more wishful thinking.

    I don't see why you object to acknowledging that as a way forward for music radioheads and byrne/eno's moves are novelty work arounds unlikely to be a global solution.

    I'll happily acknowledge they worked for the bands, if you can acknowledge they're unlikely to solve music's problem.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    I'll happily acknowledge they worked for the bands, if you can acknowledge they're unlikely to solve music's problem.

    Nope, they certainly offer at least a possibility of the beginnings of a way forward and I think they are increasingly being recognised and explored as such. They offer a positive rather than yet another negative and since a few months back you suggested that Radiohead was a just a one off, and yet the idea has been developed and has worked for several more acts in various forms since, you have to concede that its as likely as anything else on offer.

    I don't have a crystal ball but sticking ones finger in the dyke with leaky DRM or S92s as the sealant is never gonna work.

    I don't think it's wishful..rather pragmatic.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    And I do recommend that presentation by the TopSpin chap if you haven't gone there yet.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16996 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    actually the byrne/eno idea does have merit,
    essentially they're manufacturing the appearance of good will while really only delivering permanent "radio" of their album.
    radio in that it is constant broadcast hooked to one type of device in this case a computer with broad band internet connection.
    actually byrne eno have just reinvented myspace with their whole album up there.

    re radiohead are the other people using this model seeing equal or greater results or are the returns diminished?
    do you think its a model that could sustain 10000 new titles a year?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    offer at least a possibility

    what's the difference between "at least a possibility" and "unlikely".

    they're both in the same ball park. its not really a case of glass half full or empty, more like hope and wishful thinking.

    I'm not saying there won't be a solution but I sincerely doubt radiohead's model is it and so do the band no doubt which would explain them using other methods to collect sales one they'd gleaned the media exposure from the experiment, a media exposure that will not be available to others cos the story is old.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    And I do recommend that presentation by the TopSpin chap if you haven't gone there yet.

    I've been following him for a while with some interest. I think, as Rob agrees, that the Eno / Byrne thing really worked well for, I guess we call them, legacy musicians.

    The big problem is as I said earlier, the star factor. Simply put, most musicians, in their early years at least, either wanna be pop stars or wanna be stars in their genre. I'm sure people will argue it, but it applies to 99% of musicians in the rock / pop / dance / hip hop / country and related genres.

    The self distribution or many variations in copyright or other models on offer simply don't have the legs to cover such desires and force acts to sign with either cash flush labels or production houses. Show me an up and coming act that wants to distribute via a new model and almost every time I'll show you an act that is only doing so because they can't get signed to a punitive record deal by a big label.

    re radiohead are the other people using this model seeing equal or greater results or are the returns diminished?

    They claim they made more money from In Rainbows than from every previous release combined. It's a big claim though.

    do you think its a model that could sustain 10000 new titles a year?

    Nope but ask me again in 5 years when its been reworked 500 times by smart management

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    I'm not saying there won't be a solution but I sincerely doubt radiohead's model is it and so do the band no doubt which would explain them using other methods to collect sales one they'd gleaned the media exposure from the experiment, a media exposure that will not be available to others cos the story is old.

    That's like pointing at the Wright Flyer and saying "people will never fly across the Atlantic..I mean look at it!"

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    They claim they made more money from In Rainbows than from every previous release combined. It's a big claim though.

    my question which you avoided was regarding the 2nd, 3rd etc people who you say have used the pay us what you think its worth model.
    how's that working out for them when the novelty factor and the free publicity that came with it has gone.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    That's like pointing at the Wright Flyer and saying "people will never fly across the Atlantic..I mean look at it!"

    The difference being we've had many hundreds (thousands even) of years experience in business models so we can look at what happened in the radiohead experiment and analysis its success. you appear to be happy to leave your analysis of it at "it worked for them". Many others want to see how it applies to the world of music marketing, extrapolate how it can fit into the world we live in and consider the implications of the experiment.

    My understanding of what we know about this experiement is

    is a good promotional thing so long as you're the first person to do it, press will drive attention to your new product. The only down side of that is you need a new novelty idea for each and every new album released in a year.

    - people aren't as informed about the worth of a recording as the music industry would have hoped.

    - people mostly aren't as 'into' artists as to pay anything to them given the opportunity to pay nothing. The honesty box experiment showed up how dishonest we are as a civilisation and perhaps this is the most disappointing aspect of the experiment. we all hoped it would show a better result to prove how decent, caring and honest we all are.

    - established musicians in a position to fun release and promote their own record are in a stronger position than those at ground level with not profile, money or knowledge.


    Kitty hawk lead to trans atlantic flight but left as it was it didn't get you from new york to london or anywhere near it.
    directing such a comparison to my comments is miles off base.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    established musician in a position to funD, release ...

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

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