Posts by BenWilson

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  • Speaker: Meet the middle,

    I guess the only real turn up in that graph is that the sample rated ACT and National as about as right wing as each other. It's a little hard to see, because I used yellow for ACT, but it's also nearly overlaid by National's line.

    Arse, I notice the x scale got fucked up...will redo

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 9284 posts Report Reply

  • Speaker: Meet the middle, in reply to Sacha,

    Attachment

    Your wish is my command :-)

    The colored lines are the mean positions that the sample put the parties at. I also put on the mean of the self reported positioning - it has the solid black line.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 9284 posts Report Reply

  • Speaker: Meet the middle, in reply to Rob Salmond,

    Not quite, because that same sample rate Labour closer to the ideological median than National. Labour average rating is 3.46, National is 7.22. Same pattern holds for people who self-identify as a 5.

    OK, but the median is 5, because this is an integer value and that's by far the biggest group...the mean is 5.44. If you're using means for the others, you should compare to a mean. And National is closer to that than Labour.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 9284 posts Report Reply

  • Speaker: Meet the middle, in reply to Sacha,

    That might explain the FPP flavour then.

    Yes, and it goes to my second comment - that self-identification makes a lot more sense to me than what Rob used. That's Rob's definition of a centrist - is it better than Chris Trotters? I don't know. Certainly if we're going with the vibe of:

    But rule 2 in politics is “perception is reality.” That includes the perceptions of people you might not agree with. If they think they’re in the middle, then they are.

    ...then you have to conclude that actually a lot more people are right wing than left wing...right off the bat. Because that's what they said they were.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 9284 posts Report Reply

  • Speaker: Meet the middle,

    Attachment

    Just for comparison, then I have to split: Piccy of the proportions….hope it works.

    ETA: Yay!

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 9284 posts Report Reply

  • Speaker: Meet the middle,

    Not that I have a better way of interpreting their centrism necessarily. But looking at self-identification, it seems to me that the numbers on the left are much less than the one-third you put into the post. People answering with 0 through to 4 (where 5 was dead center) only total 30% of the total respondants (excluding non respondants and don’t knows). That’s an upper limit on left-of-center as self-reported. Whereas the right side, respondant answering 6 through to 10 were 45% of the total – more than twice as many people self reported being on that side as on the left.

    (Having fun with this data, btw…practicing some R)

    ETA: For comparison, the score of 5 covered the other 25%. And corrected my above number for the left to 30%...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 9284 posts Report Reply

  • Speaker: Meet the middle, in reply to Rob Salmond,

    The people I’ve labelled centrists here place Labour to the left of their self-placement, and place National to the right of their self-placement.

    Interesting way of doing it, rather than just using their own self-identification itself. So you yourself are defining centrist in terms of its relation to Labour and National, which is not how the respondents did it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 9284 posts Report Reply

  • Speaker: Meet the middle,

    I ask this because self-identifying as centrist is not the way a lot of people use the term. They use it to mean “people in the center” although they seldom explain in detail how they define the center.

    ETA: Furthermore, when they do define the center, it’s often the case that it’s a different definition for different people. Which is why defining it is something people often won’t do.

    ETA2: Which is furthermore why I find using self-identification as a better way of doing it. At least that part is indisputable. It doesn't matter if other people think I'm not centrist - it matters what I think.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 9284 posts Report Reply

  • Speaker: Meet the middle,

    Can I clarify something? In this discussion the word "centrist" means people who self-identified that way?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 9284 posts Report Reply

  • Speaker: In defence of the centre, in reply to chris,

    Epic! I think you're right if the main thrust there is to suggest that Left is not synonymous with Labour, even if it's correlated. Opposing immigrant labour is an example of an idea that goes with the Labour movement, but is not necessarily socially progressive at all, and to that extent, perhaps not left-wing. It's one of the thrusts of Labourism I least agree with, being of an immigrant background myself. In this case mostly British, in a wave that came to dominate the demography of NZ, but still - I find it hard to say that there was something fundamentally wrong with Maori ever letting my people in here, a consequence I have to accept if I want to turn around and say that, for instance, we should be strongly resisting immigrant labour now.

    And if it IS left wing to so oppose immigration, then I'm NOT left-wing.

    I do think that we should probably control immigration, of course. Laissez faire on it is an extreme position. But mostly it's the migration of lots of money that I'm most concerned about. What color the faces are is something I don't see as my right to dictate anything about.

    But my position is just mine. The political center probably isn't colorblind, and accent-deaf. Do we have a duty to try to move that center? Well, put it this way: I'm not going to move an inch. But I can't stop Labour doing it. It might influence whether I want to vote for them a little bit. But it's one of the lesser factors, frankly, influencing why I don't vote Labour. So long as they're still closer to me on that particular issue than the other parties, then I can see a coalition with them as preferable to one of the other parties, or worse, the other parties ruling outright, as they do now.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 9284 posts Report Reply

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