Thinking along these lines we have come up with some exiting ways forward in brand recognition,
Good grief... those comments say a lot about New Zealand eh?.
NEVER read Stuff comments.
But maybe you could ease up a bit too. You've been a little bit in danger of telling everyone else how the topic should be discussed, i.e. your way. I know very well that's not your intention, but it can feel that way.
Fair point, and acknowledged.
This was about music events. Russell wrote about that. The conversation may have broadened but now it feels like bullying the one person who has raised our awareness of Jeans abuse. I fail to see the point of making him leave by suggesting all the women have left.
You know how we talked upthread (contender for WOTY) about intervention, about speaking up when we saw something wrong happening. That's what I was doing. I made Russell do nothing - he makes his own decisions. And I made the comment about women leaving after he made that decision.
This, from someone you could dislike for quite a few reasons...
Well, he can't be wrong all the time ;-)
That’s why I was surprised when you were so scornful of the idea of more music people taking that kind of stand. Isn’t that how things change?
No, that's actually not what I'm saying. I'm talking about you, me and the people on this thread, this conversation. And I'm saying that we, as a group, are not addressing the problem, which is not about music events - it's about our society regarding women as viable targets wherever they are.
Isn't it significant to you that all the women have dropped out of the conversation bar raena?
 and then I scroll down and they're back ;-)
straw poll: whom of the men on this thread regard te patriarchy and rape culture as an external problem, something Other People (men) do/perpetrate? and whom regard it as something both external and internal, that patriarchy is something that has been instilled in them, in ways they may or may not even see/understand, that it's inside their heads and the struggle starts there?
Yep, totally agree. I grew up with 6 strong women and married another and, even with that, I had to face that many of my assumptions were just stupid. Some still are. I also did many dumb things, fortunately stopping at the leaning out of cars and yelling abuse. I'm not proud of that, and sometimes wish I could go back and clip me around the ear. I didn't learn that stuff from my father, but I did absorb it from the society around me.
I had to relearn my approach to women, my understanding of them and my role and responsibility in relation to them. Sometimes I still get it wrong but I try to put it right.
we (te mens) are all part of the problem, i think until you can admit that you can't really be part of the solution
This. So much this, and this is largely what I feel has been missing in this conversation so far.
That may well be what’s changed, yes. That doesn’t seem insignificant.
What I'm getting at is that that's true of the much wider issue. It's not just cultural events - it's life in general.
The main theme of the post was how offensive the very idea of declaring cultural events that are important to women off-limits for their own safety was.
I acknowledge this, but the conversation has gone a lot wider than that. It's about women in homes, women in public, women at work - it's all the same problem. As a society, we don't value and respect women (individuals do, I know, before anyone gets their knickers in a twist). Not just kids, all of us. The kids are only acting out what is usually done in private. I agree with the thought that reality TV has a lot to do with how they see themselves, as performers, needing to go that bit further to shock and stand out. They get their cues from the likes of Paul Henry and Mike Hosking, who are continually in their faces on TV and other media. We celebrate shock jocks and their ratings-grabbing antics, we tolerate dickwad misogynistic "writers" like Du Fresne and Drinnan. It's *our* fault for not taking that stand and saying "It's not OK" (deliberate allusion)
That's why returning to the cultural event stuff at this stage of the conversation seems like privileged nonsense to me, because you're not going to solve the problem by tighter enforcement of events, or writing an app or whatever - you're just going to put it out of your sight when you go to such things. The underlying condition is still there.
This one struck me particularly hard because I share the same cultural loves as Jean and her friends. I understand what it means to them, because it means that to me too. The idea of them not being able to be there breaks my heart.
Oh, me too. I do get that. But I also get the women on this thread who've said "it happened to me too" and "it's the same as it ever was" who do seem to have been ignored or challenged by a number of participants. And that's just victim-shaming.
Caring about the safety of your own cultural space is not to the exclusion of the broader problem, and I said that in the post. I realise that we’re coming from different places, but declaring the post we’re discussing “privileged nonsense” isn’t really fair.
I think I've covered this. I stand by my use of the term, because I wasn't just talking about the post, but the resulting conversation. I mean, we're on page 11 FFS.
Yes, and some of us are trying to change things for the better, and some of us are sitting back on our heels and making out like it's all some mysterious external force at work.
I agree, which is what irked me about the "something has changed" approach.The only thing that has "changed" is the boldness and frequency. The underlying attitudes that cause rape and sexual assault haven't changed an iota. That's the real tragedy. Saying "it's breaking our music festivals and we should be allowed to grieve" is some mighty privileged nonsense, to me at least. Not the real issue at all.
Sorry, folks. I should have put "Trigger Warning" on that vid. I do sincerely apologise. Russell, can you edit?