I don’t get this cause-effect thing you’re raising here. Very often the cause of us doing something is the effect that it will produce. I go to the shop and buy something nice to eat.
Then you understand nothing, Jon Snow. Cause and effect are separate things when related to one action. An effect may be a cause for a following action (and often is) but it is a result of the first action. You stated that the reason for pursuing homosexual law reform was not about harm minimisation (e.g. getting arrested, having no legal redress, being assaulted etc) but about attaining happiness. I'm telling you, as someone who was there, that wasn't why we did it, and some people were just as unhappy with their lives after the event as they were before it. You don't want to listen, preferring your own second-hand (and selective) narrative. And now you split hairs. You are so wrong, but I'm done with the 'conversation' and you. Enjoy your rose-tinted reality, Ben.
Hmmm ... but greater happiness was an outcome, and if you're measuring outcomes, you'd include it.
The discussion was about cause, not outcome.
Even if it's not how you think, it's how I think, and I suggest that it's how a whole lot of people think.
Apology accepted, but it's not about what people think now - it's about what people thought then. That's where the cause comes from. Happiness was only an effect, and not the most important one, which was legal status and freedom from discrimination (still a work in progress, as with so many other minorities).
If I have a nail in my foot, I don't pull it out because it will make me happy, though that may indeed be an outcome of the removal. I pull it out because it doesn't belong there, it may cause the foot to go gangrenous and because it bloody hurts.
There were many gay people who would have said they were happy before reform and "best not to make a fuss", which is like Russian Jews not protesting the pogroms, or being forced to live within the Pale of Settlement. The reform activity was all about rocking the boat. In some countries, it might have backfired and caused greater issues, which is what boofheads like McCoskrie and Tamaki would like to see happen, but in NZ common decency prevailed.
I was going to leave this, but you've made me very angry. Your paternalistic "straight boy knows best" attitude is insulting to my life experience and to the memory of those who never made it. I should accept your pronouncement because you're straight? Fuck off. That's the very bullshit we were fighting against - that people who weren't us were making the decisions that ruled our lives. That arrogance of straight entitlement is what drove us. The anger it generated fueled us, and the intransigence of "those who know best" is what we sought to, and to a degree, did break.
You presume to know what drove us to seek change - you can't know, because you weren't part of it. Not part of the drive and, more importantly, not part of the community that suffered under.
I was not too young to know homosexuals before and after the law reform, and they were markedly very happy about it.
Well, yes, of course we were happy. We had legal status. We didn't have to worry about policemen peeking through our bedroom windows or setting up entrapment in public toilets. Hell, we didn't need public toilets to meet strangers for furtive sex. We could seek redress in discrimination cases and not be laughed out of court. We could fight back with the tools of the establishment that were denied us as queers. But happiness, or the chance of it, was a product of success, it wasn't the driving force. The driving force was survival and getting basic human rights. The struggle isn't over. It's a lot better than it was, but there is still discrimination, there's still beatings, and deaths. But we're taken as seriously as straight people when we seek redress, and that is what we wanted. Were we happy when we got it? Of course, but that was an effect , not a cause.
Please don't presume to tell me how my life was lived.
If anything, harm reduction stood in its way at the time, all the people who could claim they could see some kind of harm coming from it, stacked up against a minority of people whose happiness would be improved enormously.
Harm reduction is about objective measurables, not subjective perceptions. You are therefore incorrect in your assessment - the harm that was reduced was the fact that homosexuals faced discrimination without redress, were sent to prison (at a measurable cost to the State), frequently turned up in A&E having been beaten outside a nightclub or a bar or even in their own home (measurable cost to the State), were regularly under medical care for mental health issues, for addiction issues and other matters, all of which can be costed. I was there and part of it. You are too young.
I'm glad we considered the happiness the bigger part of the picture.
You were correct when you said "fundamental human right". That's not happiness, it's only a basis from which you may seek happiness. Homosexual law reform was never about happiness. It was some of the grimmest political work I have ever seen.
There was a commenter here called Shulgin, who I think I banned after he got obsessive about that and other issues
I remember him. He was a tad rabid, yes.
Maxwell, who is still with the police, says he doesn’t want to discuss his report.
I’ll bet he doesn’t.
Sounds like an OIA to me.
I don't believe anyone's saying "you should work longer hours because family" but, when you advertise your bank as equivalent to any other bank, you need to mean it. And when you operate globally, you need to manage those relationships, even if it means having an out of hours rent-a-callcentre in a country that doesn't share your timezone.
I doubt that CJ would have had much better service from any of the NZ banks over Easter though.
It is odd that NZ journalists were left out of the loop since we feature so prominently in the story. More so since Nicky Hager did so much work on a similar story with the ICIJ that looked at NZ trusts but was scuppered by a rogue Guardian journo.
the fat, lazy, overpaid, underworked Wellington policy class
You really do need to find a new club to beat with.