Cracker: Wallywood
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One of my local Indians does a Dal Mutter, which I assume to be a delicious blend of herbs and spices inspired by Rammstein:
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Clearly it's a subjective value that Fascism = bad (mmmkay?).
I don’t think it is clear that such a judgment is purely subjective. I’m not sure it makes sense to point out the mass of argument and evidence against fascism if you then still conclude that is only subjectively wrong. Also, it still seems to me your and Gio’s response (“Except for the very small detail that Fascism is predicated exactly on forbidding whole categories of people to have a say on what's right and wrong”) to 3410’s point amounts to an objective point against fascism.
But he can still tell you which is the best car for drag racing.
At the time he was interested in drag racing, yes. Not sure I'm understanding your point.
I didn't see the point in suggesting he might move on from interest in drag racing; it doesn’t refute anything in the argument. Which of the two cars is fastest over a short race in a straight line remains an object fact – actual best, regardless of anyone’s personal taste in cars.
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Also, it still seems to me your and Gio’s response (“Except for the very small detail that Fascism is predicated exactly on forbidding whole categories of people to have a say on what's right and wrong”) to 3410’s point amounts to an objective point against fascism.
Yup. And that's very simplistically the argument that Lyotard makes in his last book, The Differend. It is the claim to objectivity and the shutting out of other discourses that both expose and invalidate Fascism. In fact isn't that generally how conspiracy theories like Holocaust Denial fold? They always start with an appeal to relativism, claiming that if you don't listen to their alternative points of view it means you don't believe in an open society and the free pursuit of knowledge, but then quickly it becomes apparent that they are predicated on the absolute denial of every other possible explanation or interpretation.
Pays to remember too that Fascism and Nazism were founded on conspiracy theories. And as soon as they seized power those theories became the Truth.
I came across a quote from Mussolini on education the other day that illustrates this point I thihnk:
Italian school, in all its levels and in all its teachings, must be inspired by the ideology of Fascism, educate the Italian youth to understanding Fascism, to take pride in it and to live in the historical climate created by the Fascist revolution.
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All the "drag race" example shows is that you need a very tightly-defined context before you can make firm pronouncements about what "best" means.
There's no such consensus about movies - which I believe is what was being discussed before this thread veered into such a yawnfest.
Black-or-whiters being absolutist about relativism is mighty tedious many decades after the death of unchallenged modernism. Considerably more sophistication (and humanity) shown elsewhere here than either end of that old spectrum.
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ya mean PE ain't Physical Education!?
There is a sadly high number of addicts - alcohol/E/other- within North Otago. They're useless wee shits - but - and seriously - what can you do with them?
Oamaru is of course renowned for its Panadol
bludgers and other fine home-baking...
:- )Cheeses died for your sins...
and we have a local (Harihari) person who makes goat paneer
so that would be a vital ingredient in the "gut-wrenching" Harihari-curry...
also known as the face saving after-dinner disembowelmint... -
History of cheese (streaming 21mins) from yesterday's This Way Up show on Radio NZ. Mentions paneer.
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3410,
Black-or-whiters being absolutist about relativism is mighty tedious many decades after the death of unchallenged modernism.
Well, sure, but can people realise that just because one challenges a position, that doesn't necessarily mean that one is advocating for its opposite?
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this thread veered into such a yawnfest
Yes, it has got rather dahl recently.
Ahahahaha. Gosh I'm funny.
I would have though all this curry talk would have 'spiced' things up for you. Ohhhh, stop it, my sides!
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Hey Ian! Sofie already got in with the little Baby Cheezus...
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That reminds me of that time my dearest started telling her parents (her own parents! Does she even know them?!) the joke about the three wise men at the restaurant asking to see the little cheeses, and how after some ineffectual nudging and kicking I took over the telling of the joke in order to fall on that particular sword for her, as it were. Most selfless thing I've ever done.
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I didn't see the point in suggesting he might move on from interest in drag racing; it doesn’t refute anything in the argument. Which of the two cars is fastest over a short race in a straight line remains an object fact – actual best, regardless of anyone’s personal taste in cars.
Ha. No, in fact, it doesn't. That's not what drag racing is; drag racing is about which car can go fastest while satisfying an essentially subjective and arbitrary set of rules.
One the essential bits about drag racing (any racing, really) is the personal taste of the rule maker in cars.
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if you don't listen to their alternative points of view it means you don't believe in an open society and the free pursuit of knowledge, but then quickly it becomes apparent that they are predicated on the absolute denial of every other possible explanation or interpretation
Pretty much describes the doctrine of libertarianism, too?
I would have though all this curry talk would have 'spiced' things up for you.
Freewheeling Friday seems to have come early this week. But this is no way to curry favour :-)
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Pretty much describes the doctrine of libertarianism, too?
I don't know about libertarianism, but certainly one of the reasons why I think studying and talking about epistemology is far from boring or pointless or idiotic or insufficiently humane - as it has been variously suggested on this thread - is that it helps when it comes to refuting false histories such as the Celtic hypothesis of Doutrè et al, or neoconservative revisionisms like Brash's 2025 taskforce report. These aren't idle pastimes.
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Well, sure, but can people realise that just because one challenges a position, that doesn't necessarily mean that one is advocating for its opposite?
Heh. Yeah, I am against absolutist stances (such as fascism, Christian fundamentalism, Muslim fundamentalism), but reactions such as Sacha's are common.
In fact isn't that generally how conspiracy theories like Holocaust Denial fold? They always start with an appeal to relativism,
And I can see the appeal of that appeal. I have argued against absolutist dogma myself and been confronted with exactly that criticism: that I'm not tolerant of alternative views and ways of doing things. By the way, do 9/11 "truthers" have an equally valid view of those events as you and I?
All the "drag race" example shows is that you need a very tightly-defined context before you can make firm pronouncements about what "best" means.
It was suggested that a context was necessary, and I am saying that a context is often given. I'm not saying these issues are easy to resolve, but I don't think "well it's all just opinion in the end" is such a clever answer.
... this thread veered into such a yawnfest.
Thanks for contributing.
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I don't think "well it's all just opinion in the end" is such a clever answer.
Unless it was during one of the bits where my eyes glazed over, I don't think anyone actually claimed that, did they?
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Ha. No, in fact, it doesn't. That's not what drag racing is; drag racing is about which car can go fastest while satisfying an essentially subjective and arbitrary set of rules.
What, like, which car is fastest in a straight line, over a comparatively short distance? Call it what you like, but which car is fastest in the context given is an objective truth. Sacha had the better response here; the issue is whether the analogy has much relevance to assessments of the value of things such as films.
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"well it's all just opinion in the end".
I don't think anyone actually claimed that, did they?
Well, I had in mind comments such as:
...everything in them boils down to subjective opinion of artistic worth.
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And I can see the appeal of that appeal. I have argued against absolutist dogma myself and been confronted with exactly that criticism: that I'm not tolerant of alternative views and ways of doing things. By the way, do 9/11 "truthers" have an equally valid view of those events as you and I?
No. And the reason why they don't is that their appeal is bogus and their arguments dishonest. This can be exposed relatively simply.
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Well, I had in mind comments such as:
>...everything in them boils down to subjective opinion of artistic worth.Trying to drag me back into it?
Best not lift it out of context or turn it into a straw man then. You're most likely aware that my position on truth of aesthetic matters borders on non-cognitivism, and that I extend that to ethics. I don't have the same position on clearer 'matters of fact', like 'which of these two cars is the fastest', although of course I'm familiar with the never-ending disputes that have actually arisen on that matter, disagreements about methods of measurement, what rules define a car as opposed to a rocket on wheels, etc.
My point re: art is still that it basically does boil down to a bunch of subjective opinions. But that doesn't mean discussion is pointless. You might want to know which subjective opinions those are. You might want dispute the boiling down process, showing it to be unreasonable.
These disputes can be useful and progressive for a while. But there's no clear or agreed system for resolution, so they can also drag on forever like an internet thread, going over the same ground. Then they're not so useful, and usually people that actually wanted to find something out have left by then and the only people left are die-hards defending their core beliefs, which are ultimately subjective.
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Dairy me...
Hey Ian! Sofie already got in with the little Baby Cheezus...
What! You mean that "Vegemite" smear back in June? (to which I responded with something about "Marmitetreya and Cheeses on the Cross")...
:- )
I believe the Son of Gouda I was alluding to
with my Puckish punishment has shed his natal swaddling and quit the baby zone, after spending almost 2 score years (a Brie(f) life) "spreading the word", ending in political martyrdom, he has assumed his fatal shroud... the seams of which have traced a Blue Vein through our culture.
Still Easter is coming, and we can cheddar tear over our devilled eggs...Goodbayou, Halloumi...
... but of course if this a "No Pun Recycling Area",
I'll be popping my Curdish-Thesaurus in my
Paneer Bags and be on my Whey...
Putting myself out to Pasteur, and leave you all to Havarti discourse ... a Feta worse than death...slices thinly, there's no waste...
cheesy huh?
;- ) -
Call it what you like, but which car is fastest in the context given is an objective truth.
Is it, though? It's not like the cars are piloting themselves. You're conveniently eliding the subjective element: that each car is being driven by someone. Without a driver, the car is just an inert lump. Presumably the driver's skills make a difference in how fast the car can go, even in a straight-up quarter mile drag race.
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I don't imagine they gave Schumacher 50 million dollars a year on account of his boyish good looks.
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Dairy me...
Excellent :)
Re cycling
no pun left behind,
What can pun do with the "hey zeus on a stick"? -
3410,
Is it, though? It's not like the cars are piloting themselves. You're conveniently eliding the subjective element: that each car is being driven by someone. Without a driver, the car is just an inert lump. Presumably the driver's skills make a difference in how fast the car can go, even in a straight-up quarter mile drag race.
Except that we don't, in good conscience, compare two things by deliberately skewing the variables; quite the reverse.
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