Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: About Arie

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  • Matthew Poole, in reply to FletcherB,

    The only stories on National Radio that I heard where the items being looted were mentioned (and thus, you could come to a conclusion on whether they were insignificant or not)… were for petrol-generators keeping cell towers and road-side exchanges going

    I saw comments from one of the "eastern suburbs" residents that they'd liberated at least one of the cell tower generators from the west because they felt their needs were greater and weren't being met - powering a cell tower two or three days in vs people having power to their homes was the logic, I think.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to nzlemming,

    The AOS is only supposed to be deployed in response to an incident involving armed offenders, hence the name (that note for Judith Collins, in case she hadn’t worked it out). They’re not supposed to do ordinary patrolling, armed with glocks and sheilds and who knows what else is in the back of the wagon.

    uh, actually, they can be used however the District Commander feels is appropriate. Their rules of engagement are exactly the same as for any other officer, but there is nothing that says they're not allowed to patrol while armed. Most dog handlers carry at night, most South Auckland detectives carry at night, and it's entirely within policy.

    I wondered how long it would take for that clip to generate outrage. Looks like it's the usual knee-jerk. In the circumstances, having four or six armed police (in two or three cars) readily available, is probably a wise precaution. There're a lot of raw emotions in Christchurch, with all the attendant risks of situations escalating.

    Oh, and as for what they have in the boot, you do know there's exactly the same kit in the back of sergeants' wagons, right? That's why the AOS Sergeant they interviewed was standing next to a station wagon - that's the one that has the full arsenal in the boot, and does whether it's being driven by a general duties sergeant or an AOS one.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby, in reply to Russell Brown,

    But I suspect the most likely explanation is the most straightforward one.

    occams razor and all that.

    the police likely bashed him. they're arseholes at the best of times, and during the high emotions post-quake, with the Minister and the MSM leading the lynch mob you can imagine that no-one is going to care much.

    am still waiting for a reply from Collins about her pro-rape comments. i made sure i included "does this only apply to men, or are you condoning rape of women as well?"

    she'll likely not reply.

    am intending the ombudsman for this one.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Kumara Republic,

    And what became of the Mason Report? Was it ever put in practice?

    Getting there - especially via the 'Blueprint'. Still huge challenges with resourcing services properly.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19688 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Kumara Republic,

    I'm sure the NBR's David Cohen will have something to say about this, given his son is autistic

    David was part of a thoughtful Radio NZ show on Sunday about fathers of disabled children (stream, 54 mins or MP3, 18MB).

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19688 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Steve Parks,

    I didn't know (until reading this post) that one of the people concerned was autistic, or that he'd been assaulted, or that the theft was relatively minor.

    If the Police did have some autism spectrum training recently, it will be interesting to hear why they so obviously did not apply it here.

    It would have been a fraught time for them. I understand the need to be seen to be tough on looters early in the piece to prevent the public's heightened feelings leading to mob vigilante action. But that's undermined if the Police let their own emotions get in the way.

    I don't know Arie or what he's like, but as an aspie I can imagine him not seeming to take the situation seriously when caught or even trying to continue with his fixation, and I guess that may have pissed off his arresters. He may have struggled and received a corrective elbow or knee in the face on the ground. Who knows.

    However you'd think they would have realised at some stage during the process what was going on and found someone more suitable to parade for the cameras as the 'face of looting'. This story saddens me.

    As for Lhaws, I'd expect nothing different. He's a detestable little man who won't change on his own. I welcome concerted action to remove his access to a pulpit that harms the community's understanding and moral development - and simply contravenes the privilege of a broadcasting license for his employers. Take his megaphone away.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19688 posts Report Reply

  • Tim Hannah, in reply to Sacha,

    He may have struggled and received a corrective elbow or knee in the face on the ground. Who knows.

    However you’d think they would have realised at some stage during the process what was going on and found someone more suitable to parade for the cameras as the ‘face of looting’.

    Which makes some sense, but I don't get why - if he required restraining at point of arrest, and if they were keen to be seen treating looters harshly, and if they were willing to parade him - why didn't they charge him with resisting arrest as well?

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 228 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby, in reply to Tim Hannah,

    if he required restraining at point of arrest, and if they were keen to be seen treating looters harshly, and if they were willing to parade him – why didn’t they charge him with resisting arrest as well?

    because resisting arrest would indicate they were responsible for this beating.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    I'm going on a bit about this but I also have a 25 year old with ASD and he and his community are very vulnerable here.

    What I found in my research is that currently good outcomes in autism policy are largely dependent on love and luck: love that you have a family to advocate for you and go into battle for you, your rights and needs; luck that good services and supports are available for the autistic person and their family when they need them.

    This young man has a history of foster placements, and although he seems to have a loving foster family now, he's probably missed out on major advantage number one for much of his life. He's obviously been very unlucky to have been caught in the earthquake and to have been subjected to such disruption of his routine daily life. It is an understandable reaction then to seek what comforts, and for autistic people that is usually around their special interest (rather than the chocolate and alcohol others seek). He only took lightbulbs and fittings (his special interest) from one apparently abandoned house. He was then confronted by a system and people in no mood to deviate from their own assumptions. So no luck there.

    I do hope Arie is getting good support now. An investigation and apology for the violence he suffered is warranted. But, if this awareness means the next autistic person to do something similar receives support rather than being beaten up and jailed, that would be one way to diminish the need for such variables as love and luck.

    (And Michael Laws should try reading the APA's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV Text Revision 2000)

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3203 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens,

    I hope it was not the police taking the law into their own hands, or any variation on that theme

    If you ever find yourself between a grizzly bear and her cubs, I'd hate to think how long it would take you to do the sums.

    Sevilla, Espana • Since Nov 2006 • 2213 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    Michael Laws should try reading

    LOL moment of the day.

    you're kidding, right?

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

  • Nikki Wysman, in reply to Scott A,

    Arie was spoken to last Friday and confirmed that it was the police that beat him

    Australia • Since Mar 2011 • 3 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Nikki Wysman,

    Arie was spoken to last Friday and confirmed that it was the police that beat him

    Who did he speak to?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Che Tibby,

    she’ll likely not reply.

    If you addressed it to her as Minister, she doesn't have a choice.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Nikki Wysman, in reply to Che Tibby,

    It would be very uncommon for someone with ASD to resist arrest, Arie would have become very meek and mild and very very frightened by the situation that he found him in, and this is clear of the image and what we saw on TV when he was in the make shift court, Head down, very quiet.

    Australia • Since Mar 2011 • 3 posts Report Reply

  • Nikki Wysman, in reply to Russell Brown,

    His foster sister spoke to Arie and Arie confirmed that it was the police that Beat him

    Australia • Since Mar 2011 • 3 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby,

    i can actually feel RBs rage all the way down here in Wellington.

    what's your plan man? you taking this to TV?

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

  • DCBCauchi,

    A couple of people have mentioned that things like police beatings and prison rape are not meant to happen in civilised countries. They are dead wrong. Whether it is consciously acknowledged or not, civilised society (i.e. the rule of law) absolutely requires such threats as police beatings and prison rape to function.

    Assuming most readers are law-abiding members of the middle classes, think about your own attitude to going to prison. Sure, the loss of freedom is by no means an insignificant factor, but can you honestly say other fears play no part?

    This, I imagine, is what Nietzsche meant by 'Civilisation invented crime' (rather than the trite meaning that crime is defined by laws). A manageable criminal element is needed to keep the rest of society in line.

    And 'concerted action to remove [Laws's] access to a pulpit that harms the community’s understanding and moral development' is an outrageous suggestion. Like it or not, Laws is just as entitled to express his point of view as anyone else. The idea of self-appointed committees deciding who and what 'harms moral development' gives me the shits almost as much as the national mood ever since two days after the quake has done.

    Since Feb 2011 • 320 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Oh, look, me too. It has taken me a while to work this out.

    Yeah I think everyone was operating in shock. Including police and reporters. If the Police did use unreasonable force then they were wrong and will need to be investigated and sanctioned. It is possible the bruising was received during, you know, that earthquake. As much as we were wrong to jump to conclusions about Aire's actions we probably want to be cautious about this as well, But we definitely need to investigate it.

    What is of more concern is the obvious "perp walk". That's an action that cannot be described as "heat of the moment". Perp walks are cynical manipulation and worst of all prejudge the prisoner as guilty.

    The final failure was the reporters who failed to notice anything wrong with the perp walk and the bruising. It's hard to be anything other than simply depressed about that. Yes they were tired and stressed like everyone else but it's probably just a symptom of the fact we don't have that many good experienced journalists out on the street any more.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4451 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Nikki Wysman,

    His foster sister spoke to Arie and Arie confirmed that it was the police that Beat him

    They should certainly be called upon to explain their actions.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10641 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd, in reply to DCBCauchi,

    Like it or not, Laws is just as entitled to express his point of view as anyone else

    The issue is not his entitlement to expression -- a right which everyone enjoys -- but his entitlement to the pulpit.

    If I express my belief that he's a poisonous turd to those who provide his pulpit, well hey, I'm just expressing my point of view too. I'm entitled, I believe.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to DCBCauchi,

    Like it or not, Laws is just as entitled to express his point of view as anyone else.

    Bullshit to notions that 'free speech' means freedom to a megaphone and from consequences. Broadcasting comes with conditions. Take the right-wing tosh elsewhere, David.

    Snap

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19688 posts Report Reply

  • JWT1,

    To my mind the unreported suggestion of vigilantism in the case of the young man with a fascination for electrical fittings is much more disturbing than the verbal running off at the mouth of an apparent nutter like Michael Laws. The whole incident brings up the dilemma of how society deals with those of its members who “don’t experience the world like I do” as Russell neatly puts it. He and his family cope with this by removing them from mainstream education and going to a lot of trouble and expense to provide suitable alternatives.
    To my mind the present systems of justice as practiced in most of the western world are at best a form of codified and legalised vigilantism and take no cognisance of those who have views of society and view of their place in it which differs from a so called “norm”. Why is it that those convicted of a serious crime are given a fixed term sentence when there is no evidence that they will “learn their lesson” in prison and emerge as model citizens at the end. As I see it, they are more likely to emerge from the present system with an even greater “anti-social” view of the world and be just as great a danger as they were when they went in.
    There is a growing body of scientific evidence that suggests that differences in our genetic make up can have significant effects on the ways in which the connections in our brains are formed. Even more importantly there is evidence that ones early experiences and influences in life can modify these connections as the brain develops following birth. If substantiated, these findings have rather far-reaching ramifications to the way the justice system deals with offenders against societal norms. Do we stick with the present rather retributive system we have at present or do we move to a system where ones “guilt” is restricted to the evidential aspects relating to whether the act in question was actually committed by the individual concerned? If the answer to this question is yes, then how is the “punishment” arrived at? One could envisage a system where “treatment” following conviction is recommended by a panel of appropriate people. In severe cases treatment could be confinement to a secure facility where the individual could be treated and their progress assessed periodically (not by a parole board). Release would be dependent on the basis of an expert opinion regarding their response to treatment.
    My thoughts on this issue have been influenced to a large extent by reading a recent article in the scientific journal “Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA” entitled “The Lucretian swerve: The biological basis of human behavior and the criminal justice system” which is available free online at: http://www.pnas.org/content/107/10/4499.full

    Manawatu • Since Aug 2010 • 12 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Nikki Wysman,

    His foster sister spoke to Arie and Arie confirmed that it was the police that Beat him

    Can we get confirmation of this, please. This isn't a great story for anyone involved. Not meaning to doubt you Nikki but we need to get this right as much as the police should have in the first place.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4451 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Stephen Judd,

    If I express my belief that he's a poisonous turd to those who provide his pulpit, well hey, I'm just expressing my point of view too. I'm entitled, I believe.

    Seconded. People ask where the boundary between free speech and hate speech should be drawn, and I believe the answer lies with anyone who survived Auschwitz, Kosovo, or Rwanda.

    And ironically, Mr Lhaws' pet bylaw, the gang patch ban, appears to have been struck down as unconstitutional. Somehow it wasn't written with neo-Nazi skinheads in mind, and in practice it makes it harder for the cops to identify gangsters.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5420 posts Report Reply

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