Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Another nail in the coffin of music DRM

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  • Kyle Matthews,

    Correct me if I'm wrong but were they attempting to control the mis use of their product, not the use of it, ie trying to stop people flicking the product everywhere and to everyone.

    In this context, use clearly is a set including both legal and illegal. ie. I'm going to use this music player to play music.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    What on earth are you on about?

    I'm asking you a question. Are you still pushing for unrestricted media having had a chance to discuss in further detail the long term implications for artists of the loss of control of the distribution of their work, or are you still going for the Utopian view that everything's going to be just fine.

    I'm just checking to see if you take on anything that anyone else says. hey, I don't have a weekly column in a national mag so it doesn't really matter what I'm seen to say or think.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Except that they're defining "misuse" to suit themselves.

    or to suit their abilities to control their media at that point in time. your attack on DRM was based on you not being able to swap platforms, and for that you were prepared to publicly demonise DRM,
    you could have used your position to quell the masses and be the voice of reason for understanding why musicians and their labels might want to control distribution of media, why its a good thing for music creation to have a solid viable business model, I'm just wondering if you've taken on board anything along those lines.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    In this context, use clearly is a set including both legal and illegal. ie. I'm going to use this music player to play music.

    I think its obvious that music rights owners were trying primarily to control the illegal use of their product. to infer that they're trying to infringe on your rights as a legal owner as their primary objective is straight out misleading and incites a situation of negativeness toward people who were only trying to maintain stability in their industry, an industry that's been pretty kind to you personally I might add.

    I'm just trying to understand your logic. enlighten me

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    your logic meaning russell's not kyle. you don't have a nationally distributed column do you kyle?

    21 pages, only 19 to go.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I'm just trying to understand your logic. enlighten me

    It seems pointless discussing it, but I was describing an observable reality: the four major labels have begun selling their catalogues in non-DRM formats, largely because they discovered that DRM was working against their interests.

    The foolproof DRM-locked playback device you envisaged upthread happened: it's called the iPod, and its success put its maker, Apple, in the box set, at the expense of the music companies.

    The company they have instead put their weight behind, Amazon, has just announced plans to take its DRM-free music store global.

    Meanwhile, EMI and scores of indie labels have their catalogues on iTunes without DRM, and eMusic has had its best year yet.

    It doesn't matter whether anyone takes moral offence at this. It's just happened, and I can't see it going back in the box.

    And, please, lay off stuff like "an industry that's been pretty kind to you personally". I think I've been very tolerant of personal slights along these lines from you in previous threads, but there's a limit.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22754 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    personal slights

    not a personal slight, an observable reality which is public knowledge. with so many musicians as friends I was wondering why you'd be keen for them (and it is everyone, not just those signed to majors) to lose that control.
    there seemed to be an underlying glee and push for the demise of music's control mechanism, like its a good thing. If I've read you wrong on that then accept my apologies, but its hardly a unique opinion in the lynch mob attack on music rights that is all the rage these days.
    music makers and the people that sell their wares are the demons of the moment, and their efforts should be freely circulated, although I note no ones pushing for dentists to work for free, which is too bad cos I've got a loose filling that needs fixing.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    lynch mob attack on music rights that is all the rage these days.

    Now you really *have* gone off the rails robbery. What an absolutely stupid statement and misunderstanding of the issues. No musicians' rights are being attacked by those who oppose DRM (TPMs). Get it, none, zip, nada. I see you are descending to insults which hardly strengthens your case.

    What we are doing is defending our rights not to be royally screwed over by the guys that have screwed musicians for decades. Think I'm overstating the case, then why the hell was Prince the "artist formally known as Prince" for so damned long? Why have a whole string of successful "artists" from George Michael through to The Beatles spend so much time railing against the "industry"?

    Musician's rights have stayed the same, they are not under attack, it is the rest of us that are being made to suffer by that ailing industry.

    If that industry is unable to accept the advice from sage people, like those on this forum, that they need a new business model to deal with new models of delivery then they deserve to die. Musicians themselves will not suffer, but you know that, don't you.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    as various people have noted, you don't seem to take in anything anyone else says.

    the couple of people who have said that ie finn have said it in reference to their side issue points. ie there is no such thing as uncrackable (finn, and I did and do take his point but he didn't take mine that I have had in crackable software (and I would know this cos I was looking desperately for the crack cos the legit version was cumbersome, and also that the problem doesn't have to be solved in a linear way, vinyl is uncrackable you have to make play it in to computer in real time and you'll get all the inherent flaws in it that your one copy has as opposed to cd which is an exact copy ripped in a fraction of real time, and no I'm not offering vinyl as a solution to piracy, just noting interesting points about it.) and vlc player plays flv files. (finn again but finn didn't ask me what computer I have (mac) just stated I was wrong, but there I was with the latest version of VLC and some freshly ripped youtube footage and no go)

    I think my other main point of contention was that filesharing and piracy is a crime that we pretend is not, and its not victimless. people can argue about that but they know its true, we just justify it to ourselves.

    What were the other points that were clearly stated that I just wouldn't listen to?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    No musicians' rights are being attacked by those who oppose DRM (TPMs). Get it, none, zip, nada.

    The right to control the distribution of your works?

    is that not a right that is being infringed upon by attacking DRM?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    I see you are descending to insults which hardly strengthens your case.

    I'm not insulting anyone big nose.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    What we are doing is defending our rights not to be royally screwed over by the guys that have screwed musicians for decades.

    for the umtenth time hollywood myth
    not that I like major labels cos of some absolute pap they have served up as music but that statement is just pure hype. it makes a good movie plot but most artists have boring contracts that relate directly to the distribution of their works. sorry, it really is that dull, but don't let me go bursting your bubble.

    read back further and you'll see mr grigg saying kiwi artists were treated pretty well by their major label evil overlords.

    myth myth myth, inadmissible as justification for the wholesale looting media, but.. thanks for pushing the page count up to 21 and a half, I know that was your real motivation for commenting and it is noted and appreciated :)

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    The right to control the distribution of your works?

    Oh, that's what you are defending is it? Why not just take a big club and smash anyone who has a PC or device that doesn't play nicely with your view of the extent of "distribution".

    It would have a similar effect to DRM and least be clear to us all what you are really doing.

    As for the insults, I do think being described as a "lynch mob" is up there. TTFN. Sorry for implying the recording industry are a bunch of liars, crooks and thieves, I guess that all went out with payolla. Oh, no wait...is Bic still flipping burgers?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    I guess that all went out with payolla

    you're thinking radio there :) they're the ones who accept payola

    Oh, no wait...is Bic still flipping burgers?

    bics a stay at home mummy or has been for the last year. she did a nice concert a couple of nights back in chch though,
    and for a women who has reach such heights she's hardly rolling in the cash compared to her equal in any other business.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Oh, that's what you are defending is it? Why not just take a big club and smash anyone who has a PC or device that doesn't play nicely with your view of the extent of "distribution".

    I'm not personally defending it per sa, more spotlighting the right to do so and drawing attention to ridiculous statements such as

    No musicians' rights are being attacked by those who oppose DRM (TPMs). Get it, none, zip, nada.

    which you then go on to infer I should take violent action to defend, can't we just talk about it peacefully over a cuppa look at the facts, the humans behind the hype, and agree to act like reasonable human beings?.....

    no? yeah, too much to ask or expect.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    As for the insults, I do think being described as a "lynch mob" is up there.

    I offended a mob? is that even possible?
    I think my point is valid and the reference apt as well shown by your comments. such as

    Sorry for implying the recording industry are a bunch of liars, crooks and thieves, I guess that all went out with payolla. Oh, no wait...is Bic still flipping burgers?

    why the generalisations, why the hating on Bic, do you know her, have you looked at her bank statements? don't you think you're acting a bit like a lynch mob (no offense intended)

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    the reference apt

    No. No it isn't. Even by the standards of babbling on the internet, it's hardly a flame war. There are just rather a lot of people who disagree with you. Politely, if slightly heatedly.

    (Oh, and no one is coming vaguely close to threatening to string you up from a tree, cut off your penis, hands, head and/or feet, and then send commemorative postcards of your dismembered body to their relatives for a good laugh. You're cheapening the metaphor beyond all recognition.)

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    You know, it takes a lot for me to think that an argument/discussion that I've been involved with has become a waste of time, and not even any fun, but I think this thread has successfully reached it.

    Props obviously.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    Robbery, I'm not rising to your posts because they've all been substantially addressed if you go back and read the thread properly. You're just repeating yourself. People have already had to resort to cutting-and-pasting their prior posts to respond to you, that's about all I could muster from now on. I've got better things to be doing, but feel free if it keeps you amused.

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    for the umtenth time hollywood myth

    God knows why I'm jumping in here, but Rob, I could (as someone who gets paid to consult on these things in several countries, and has probably more experience in music contracts than most) but won't, waffle on for a page and half here about why you are wrong on this.

    Its a core issue that has come back to bite the industry as it always would (and forget the touted 360 deals which is just more smoke and mirrors..why in gods name would anyone let a major label manage them). The recent Simon Napier-Bell piece in the Guardian says some of it well.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3283 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    if you go back and read the thread properly.

    I'm not reading that waffle.

    People have already had to resort to cutting-and-pasting their prior posts to respond to you,

    I think that was me to you, and one instance of kyle showing me something I'd missed.

    thanks finn, that's got to be 22 pages now.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    (Oh, and no one is coming vaguely close to threatening to string you up from a tree, cut off your penis, hands, head and/or feet, and then send commemorative postcards of your dismembered body to their relatives for a good laugh.

    :) colourful. I wouldn't have thought your rellies were into that kind of art,

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    why in gods name would anyone let a major label manage them

    but we're not talking a simple case of labels managing artists are we simon. Your label got into bed with the majors. did you get shafted any more than you let yourself?, did flying nun?
    does bic runga get royally done by her label or her dealings with majors? apparently not enough to get her to start burning discs off in her bedroom and folding photo copied covers to sell at gigs.

    Hayley westenra got a not particularly good deal with decca but then she's just a pretty voice isn't she.

    They serve their purpose. you enlist their services cos you can't be bothered doing it all yourself and they charge for it. If you don't like it don't get into bed with them. if you think you can get a better deal somewhere else go there. no ones forcing any of these bands or indie labels to get into bed with these people. but thats beside the point which was demonising major labels and taring everyone with their brush is oversimplifying the issue. There's an awful lot of good honest indie artists and labels that get hurt in this stampede. 28 percent by mr napier bells estimates but he doesn't say how many of the rest are indies distributed through majors.

    and reading the first couple of paragraphs from Napier -Bell

    10 cents' worth of vinyl selling for $10 - 10,000 per cent profit

    The raw vinyl may cost 10 cents but its content and cover, production and distribution, record store mark up promotion and....doesn't
    10,000 percent profit. is a highly misleading comment to make isn't it.
    and lets not forget this guy is one of them. he had a £5m unpaid tax bill. how much did he earn? if you want to do the right thing rip this money hungry profiteer off. unfortunately that would mean boney m and ultravox downloads,....

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    It doesn't matter whether anyone takes moral offence at this. It's just happened, and I can't see it going back in the box.

    I guess what i'm looking for from you russell is the other side of the story. your listener column and PA are heavily your opinion. you don't just relay the news, you write your version of it and I haven't seen you say no DRM may well hurt a lot of indie artists as well as your hated majors (many of whom distribute indies) I haven't heard you say the inablity to make a viable DRM that allows you to swap your mp3s across all your platforms is going to make things very dangerous for media sellers. I hope the bands I love find a way around this issue. that's what I'm missing from you russell.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    did you get shafted any more than you let yourself?, did flying nun?

    Uhhh..in both cases probably yes, but lets not go into details.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3283 posts Report Reply

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