Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: British style

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  • 3410,

    To make my explanation of the 'all men are rapists' claim work, you really need to run with the idea that rape is not about sex, it's about power.

    So, the 'all muslims are terrorists' claim works when you run with the idea that terrorism is not about violence, it's about power?

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    Good grief, no. I'm not interested in arguing about the (im)moral structure of terrorism by making analogies with rape.

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1444 posts Report Reply

  • Malcolm,

    3410: Your argument lacks a vital ingredient: Muslim power over non-muslims.

    Since Apr 2007 • 69 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Exactly. All men are privileged over women by the actions of a few, whether men want to be or not, because of the fear of violence they can induce. I think that is feminism 101, and any man who's walked home at night, no matter how well intentioned, and watched the woman ahead of him cross the road, knows this is true.

    For analogies to work they need to be "on all fours with the case" as the lawyers say, and I don't think the Muslim one comes anywhere close.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3119 posts Report Reply

  • Gregor Ronald,

    It's a powerful ju-ju, this four letter word. Why are rational people so excited when it's used in public? It's a word, fer crissake! I'm with Billy Connolly on this; he used to start concerts with a hundred "fuck fuck fuck"s, and then the audience were desensitized.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 101 posts Report Reply

  • merc,

    When love is absent, power quickly fills the vacuum.
    Jung.

    Since Dec 2006 • 2471 posts Report Reply

  • Riddley Walker,

    ...and the essence of warfare is deception.
    Sun Sen

    AKL • Since Feb 2007 • 890 posts Report Reply

  • merc,

    Vanilla essence is deception.

    Since Dec 2006 • 2471 posts Report Reply

  • Riddley Walker,

    spooky. i just bought some

    AKL • Since Feb 2007 • 890 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    3410: Your argument lacks a vital ingredient: Muslim power over non-muslims.

    and yours assumes male power over females.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    "and yours assumes male power over females."

    In a broad aggregate, in this society, that's a pretty safe assumption. In terms of who senses intimidation from whom, anyway,

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3119 posts Report Reply

  • merc,

    spooky. i just bought some

    Cake?

    Since Dec 2006 • 2471 posts Report Reply

  • Riddley Walker,

    for the cream, for the sticky date pudding. one of carlos's favourites you know

    AKL • Since Feb 2007 • 890 posts Report Reply

  • merc,

    No, that I didn't know, sounds like one of Riddley's favourites too. I read a little Carlos debunking, but felt that anyone who can stimulate that much thought in me, deserves to be left intact, especially,
    Stopping the world and the second attention; saved from many a boardroom disaster.

    Since Dec 2006 • 2471 posts Report Reply

  • Riddley Walker,

    yeah, he is a master. crowley did that for me.
    i hate sticky date pudding, ate it to be polite. now off to dream

    AKL • Since Feb 2007 • 890 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Riddley Walker wrote:
    hope you'll be a little more compelling in your 3 minutes of fame Craig

    Well, you'll have to wait and see. You won't, however, find any stealth F-bombs in my segment. Sorry.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12363 posts Report Reply

  • rodgerd,

    xactly. All men are privileged over women by the actions of a few, whether men want to be or not, because of the fear of violence they can induce.

    You want to be careful with that line of "indirect power by proxy = personal power". Otherwise you'll be needing to accept that since the royalty of late medieval Europe got themselves into debt to powerful Jewish financial families, and opressed peasants to pay the bills, Joe Average European Jew really was a legitimate target for the average hard done by peasant. It's much the same quality of argument.

    Sheesh, men are so sensitive! Why am I not surprised that even here there is (seemingly) no support for the idea that men as a group need to address this issue?

    I don't know. Perhaps you can commiserate with Deborah Coddington. I hear Asians are ungrateful humourless bastards when asked to do something about their crime problem.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Today seems to be false analogy day on PA System. No, I don't need to accept any of the things you propose. They are hypothetical extensions of a weak analogy which I don't find approriate.If you do, more power to you, but I will then put on my plonking voice

    plonking voice begins

    which I reserve for unassailable positions in logic, and tell you that argument by analogy is a fallacy

    plonking voice ends.

    If I hadn't been drinking a great deal of vodka, I would probably give the fallacy a number,

    What I proposed was my understanding of how things are out there in reality. Which I expect you to challenge if need be, and which challenge I will respect more than bogus resorts to button-pressing simile.

    Also in the manner of the common or internet troll, I must tell you that I am going away for the weekend (really! truly!) and therefore lack of reply must not be construed as concession.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3119 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Wouldn't a latin name be more plonky than a number? Argumentum ad analogium or something like?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10504 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    I still think argumentum ad baculum is the best fallacy, and if you disagree I'll bash you.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10504 posts Report Reply

  • Juha Saarinen,

    It's probably prudent not to rely too much on what either side claims, ie. the Iranians saying that "it was all a bit of a cock-up by the RN and we just kept the marines and sailors as our guests for a while" or the UK newspapers now stating that the Iranians laid it on thick with blindfolds, threats, isolation and mock executions.

    Likewise, I'd be surprised if diplomacy won the day instead of the usual clandestine dirty deals.

    The hostage taking represents an escalation of the war in that part of the world though so more to come soon, no doubt.

    Since Nov 2006 • 529 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    Oh I love this site. From this............

    I'd rather do a map for areas of New Zealand. There'd be a lot of red on mine!

    to this...............

    All men are privileged over women by the actions of a few, whether men want to be or not, because of the fear of violence they can induce.

    Gotta love it.
    On point one - me too, Robyn! On point two, puhlease! Some men induce a fear of violence, yes they do. Most, however, do not. I marched for the night; I walked Ponsonby Rd at 3am in the morning, claiming my power. When I was in my 20's, and learning selfdefence, and walking through Victoria Park at night, I was afraid of men. Now I'm in my 40's, I am not. Because I know that I have a voice, and I know that voice is not afraid of saying the c-word and the f-word, and I also know that I am not a victim. Men have no implicit power over me, unless I allow them to have. I have been assaulted, and I lived to tell the story because I was loud, and not about to be a victim. If women are still implicitly afraid of men, I would implore them to grow, if not bollocks, at least a very loud voice for themselves, and for their fellow women. I accept that some men are violent to some women - I reject that any man I meet has implicit power over me. Not in this lifetime, fella. Sweet of you to care, though.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3136 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Andrew,

    Stephen, hope you had a good break, I know I did - lovely beach weather.

    <quote>All men are privileged over women by the actions of a few, whether men want to be or not, because of the fear of violence they can induce. I think that is feminism 101, and any man who's walked home at night, no matter how well intentioned, and watched the woman ahead of him cross the road, knows this is true.</quote?

    But now you're talking about violence in general, not rape specifically - I've crossed the road at night more then once to avoid men: I'm male, 6'2" and it wasn't my virtue that I was worried about.

    If we're granting implicit power to groups based on their potential (real or otherwise) for violence, then I think we can narrow things down a bit more finely then "all men". " All scruffy looking teenagers" maybe, "anyone wearing a gang patch or mohawk", "people on P" or "all people of darker than average complection". The stats probably bear out the generalisations at least as well as "you're more likely to be bashed by a bloke", but then you're starting to get into the field of ageism, lower-socio-economic-groupism, racial profiling, etc.

    Hamiltron - City of the F… • Since Nov 2006 • 894 posts Report Reply

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