Hard News: Complaint and culture
325 Responses
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B Jones, in reply to
In some ways, the present is less creepy and futuristic than the past.
Modern is a funny concept. The whole early 20th century hygiene movement technologised and dehumanised things in a big way, but it also brought infant and maternal mortality down a lot. Women in Queen Victoria's day, including the Queen herself, fought for the right for anaesthesia, which was opposed by many on the grounds that childbirth pain was Eve's punishment for eating the apple. Yet twilight sleep and ether, the only things available at the time, were risky and had bizarre side effects (twilight sleep kept you up and about but made you forget it all).
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
On the other side, natural birth advocates often take exception to women being offered epidurals during labour, calling this pressuring women – one book I read instructs readers to say “no thank you” to all sorts of standard treatments/checks.
And that's cool because, you know, there's a pretty clear ethical line about drugging people against their will. OTOH, remember when there was a rash of media stories about C-sections being the trendy choice for women "too posh to push"? I can totally get why some women I know felt epically concern trolled and patronised over a pretty fraking serious surgical intervention.
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DCBCauchi, in reply to
Well, yes – and one really nice thing about Public Address System is that it’s a place where women can feel safe to talk frankly about tough stuff without feeling like they’re going to be told to calm their fevered ladybrains, focus on “real” issues and come back when their periods are over.
Rather, it's a place that has gone to the opposite extreme, where men do not seem to be safe to talk about tough stuff without being told they are patronisingly 'mansplaining' (DC's rule of thumb no. 1094: never treat anyone seriously who treats silly made-up words seriously) and to shut up and listen because any contribution they could possibly make is worthless.
I went back to find Ross Mason's original comment. It seemed to me that he had a valid thing to say that was based on his and his wife's valid and relevant experiences. No-one listened to what he said. He was told he called women cows, and even expressly told to shut up and listen – i.e. that his valid and relevant experiences were considered worthless. I don't see any other way you could take that comment.
And then you all patted yourselves on your backs once more, about what good listeners you are!
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
REDACTED: Touches on stuff Russell has asked, nicely, to be moved on from. Will press F5 and review more frequently in future.
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I've idly wondered what it is that makes this site so wrong. I'm a little fascinated by it.
I think it's because no-one actually treats what anyone writes with any genuine respect. No-one approaches things in good faith. They're always looking for the agenda, trying to 'fit it into a pattern'. People don't read what's actually there. They read what they've already preconceived.
Anyway, my two cents worth.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
And then you all patted yourselves on your backs once more, about what good listeners you are!
Yeah, us and our appalling lack of self-knowledge. Ross is a top guy, but it was patronising to attribute difficulties in breastfeeding to an incorrect attitude, and it was always going to get a response from women who knew damn well it was not, in their own experience, their problem.
Frankly, I think the only point on which we agree is that "mainsplaining" is a crappy neologism. I would be quite happy if people just didn't use it.
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Emma Hart, in reply to
I think it’s because no-one actually treats what anyone writes with any genuine respect. No-one approaches things in good faith.
Which site is this you're talking about? Because it cannot be the one that produced this comment thread.
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Megan Wegan, in reply to
Frankly, I think the only point on which we agree is that “mainsplaining” is a crappy neologism. I would be quite happy if people just didn’t use it.
I've said here before, I don't particularly like it as a term, and I very rarely use it. (Though I did enjoy a discussion recently where someone mansplained mansplaining. Good times.) But sometimes, the shoe fits. It's when it is more than patronising, or, when the patronising is particularly gendered, maybe.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
They’re always looking for the agenda, trying to ‘fit it into a pattern’.
Wow. Given what you’ve just written, that is truly astonishing.
I'm sure if I invite to go off and find another forum in which to offer your lofty commentary on everyone else you'll merely regard your point as proven, but ... really.
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DCBCauchi, in reply to
Ross is a top guy, but it was patronising to attribute difficulties in breastfeeding to an incorrect attitude
If he'd done that, sure. If he did, it was in one clumsily worded phrase out of a several paragraph post.
I'm not going to check, but I'm pretty sure he clarified in his first response that, with regard to that phrase, he was talking about the 95% of women who 'do not (or should not)' (as I recall the phrase) have physical problems.
But, yeah, I'm not going to argue it.
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Sacha, in reply to
They're always looking for the agenda, trying to 'fit it into a pattern'. People don't read what's actually there. They read what they've already preconceived.
Don't be naive. No experience is context-free, and smart people recognise that.
If you turn up to a conversation about women's health and say something about "attitude" that many will hear as "it's all in your head", what reaction do you seriously expect? "Why that's so interesting, never heard that line before. Let me serve you scones and tea while you tell me all about it. Maybe we should ask a doctor what *he* thinks?"
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Jackie Clark, in reply to
That would be your opinion. Which you are entitled to have. (See how I just respected you?) I would, as is my right, disagree with you. Because the way I see it, this is a community. Not just a message board, or a blog site with comments allowed. Let me explain how this works: 3 days ago my car was stolen. I twittered about it. Coincidentally, many of the people I follow and who follow me, are members of the PAS community. All of them retweeted that my car was stolen, and it's details so others could look out for it. That's community. Shall I give you another example? Alright, since you asked so nicely, I think I will. Many of the people who are part of this community have become friends, offline. Some have met each other, some have not. On good days, or bad days, whether you need a bit of cheering up, or whether celebration is required, people will oblige. Because they like each other, and because they are community. It;s a bit strange, I know, in a world where we are discouraged from connecting. But that's what happens here - real connection and engagement with each other. Not disembodied comments or argument. Bizarre concept, I know.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
If he’d done that, sure. If he did, it was in one clumsily worded phrase out of a several paragraph post.
Well, yeah… but no. The irony is that the occasion for this whole discussion was a pretty solid feature in North & South written by a female journo who’s hardly a tool of the misogynistic medical-industrial complex spectacularly ill-served by a dodgy cover image and needlessly provocative coverline. (Shall we take the “IMNSHO and YMMV” for all the above as read?)
Ross isn't some evil, Kiwibogian/Sub-Standard troll, otherwise I'd probably not care about his comment because I just wouldn't expect any better. But, yeah, I can tell you from experience when you make a flat out piss-poor argument -- or ruin a potentially useful one by being tone-deaf, crass or needlessly in your face -- there's going to be a reaction. Your ego can come away a little bruised, but you might just also learn a thing or two.
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Sorry Russell - I didn't mean to derail the thread, even though it looks like that's exactly what I've done. My point was that telling a guy he's 'mansplaining' is analogous to telling a women she's 'being hysterical.'
Modern is a funny concept. The whole early 20th century hygiene movement technologised and dehumanised things in a big way, but it also brought infant and maternal mortality down a lot. Women in Queen Victoria's day, including the Queen herself, fought for the right for anaesthesia, which was opposed by many on the grounds that childbirth pain was Eve's punishment for eating the apple. Yet twilight sleep and ether, the only things available at the time, were risky and had bizarre side effects (twilight sleep kept you up and about but made you forget it all).
The twilight sleep episode of Mad Men (actually, all episodes of Mad Men) made me wonder how the next generation down the line will view our current culture and especially our approach to childbirth. What do we do that will seem absurd to them?
If I had to guess I'd pick the widespread late age of childbirth. I feel vaguely terrified that I'll be in my mid-50s by the time my child is a teenager.
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Sacha, in reply to
50 is the new 35 :)
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Emma Hart, in reply to
I feel vaguely terrified that I’ll be in my mid-50s by the time my child is a teenager.
Nah, it's fine. My mother turned 60 a month after I turned 16, and it wasn't her age that made that year terrifying for her.
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B Jones, in reply to
But, yeah, I'm not going to argue it.
Good, because speaking as one of the lucky 95%, if you were, I'd suggest you take two small squares of 180 sandpaper, two clothespegs, some string and a couple of weights and come back to us in an hour or so to talk about your valid experience.
Danyl:
My point was that telling a guy he's 'mansplaining' is analogous to telling a women she's 'being hysterical.'
Only if you ignore a hundred or so years of actual medical belief that hysteria was a physical issue, with accompanying bogus medical treatments inflicted on women including forced sterilisation within living memory. Context is important.
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James Butler, in reply to
I feel vaguely terrified that I’ll be in my mid-50s by the time my child is a teenager.
I'll have barely started my 30s - that's terrifying. Which is in itself a construct of modern attitudes to child-rearing and -birth, of course.
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Emma Hart, in reply to
Only if you ignore a hundred or so years of actual medical belief that hysteria was a physical issue, with accompanying bogus medical treatments inflicted on women including forced sterilisation within living memory. Context is important.
It wasn't all bad, to be fair, B. The medical concept of hysteria did lead to the invention of the vibrator.
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Danielle, in reply to
I’d suggest you take two small squares of 180 sandpaper, two clothespegs, some string and a couple of weights and come back to us in an hour or so to talk about your valid experience.
This is fist-pumpingly awesome.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Sorry Russell – I didn’t mean to derail the thread, even though it looks like that’s exactly what I’ve done. My point was that telling a guy he’s ‘mansplaining’ is analogous to telling a women she’s ‘being hysterical.’
Fair enough. I'm feeling a bit grumpy this morning, I'll grant you that.
Perhaps we could all get back on the rails. I think the Media7 discussion went reasonably well, and I did put Sacha's "framing" question to Donna Chisholm.
It's probably worth noting that although things have got a bit tetchy here, the North & South people are reeling from the venom expressed in the Facebook discussion of their story. As I said in the original post, it's a topic that provokes some strong emotions.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
My point was that telling a guy he’s ‘mansplaining’ is analogous to telling a women she’s ‘being hysterical.’
I hereby promise to retire the term and use the non-gendered "condescending ass-bag" instead.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
It’s probably worth noting that although things have got a bit tetchy here, the North & South people are reeling from the venom expressed in the Facebook discussion of their story. As I said in the original post, it’s a topic that provokes some strong emotions.
Which I'm kind of surprised by, because N&S has done a lot of medical/social issues reportage over its twenty five year history - and has actually done a pretty good job over the years of avoiding medico-disaster porn that's too often the level health journalism exists at.
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Lilith __, in reply to
that’s what happens here – real connection and engagement with each other
+1
Why I hang out here! If I say something, I know I’m being heard, and I'm eager to hear other people and learn from what they have to say. And it’s about the only place I know on the internet where people can disagree while still being polite and friendly to each other. Everyone’s got something to offer.
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Jackie, Lilith, I'm afraid you have been assimilated by the PAS hivemind. David will consider your posts a frightening proof of exactly how brainwashed we all are.
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