Hard News: Compromise
359 Responses
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Tamaki can call himself Lord High Poo-Bah
Hands off pal, that one's taken already!
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merc,
3410, before you throwaway a rewarding career, these guys are recruiting.
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Deborah:
And come on, Craig - after all the agonising discussion here on PA this week, are you really suggesting that as a married woman, my identity ought to be subsumed in my husband's identity?I thought it was blindingly obvious that I don't really give a shit either way - it worries me about as much as what kind of honorific Brian Tamiki is styled with. Clark has always used her maiden name in public life, and media organizations that use honorifics have followed her own preference, 'Miss'.
Now, Deborah and Darryl, do you think I really need to put sarcasm tags around every damn thing or can I assume PA readers are smart enough to not require spoon-feeding?
And FYI, when I do decide to 'attack Helen Clark' you'll bloody know it. OK?
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BTW, I've got the latest by P.D. James and Ruth Rendell on my bedside table, although they're both life peers if they're not fussed about being referred to as "Baroness James of Holland Park' and 'Baroness Rendell of Babergh', I'm not going to lose much sleep.
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Posted at 3:54AM
Posted at 6:28AM
Posted at 7:49AMWhat the hell, are you guys dairy farmers or what?
Thanks Robyn for the MC Hammer video. I had no idea that cycling was so popular in the early 90s.
The problem I have with Mr Tamaki's honorific is that it denotes a power differential. And even though it really only means anything inside his particular branch of the church, he sounds like he ranks higher than a pastor of another church who may represent more people.
A bishop, a pastor and a rabbi walk into a sitting of parliament...
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Now, Deborah and Darryl, do you think I really need to put sarcasm tags around every damn thing or can I assume PA readers are smart enough to not require spoon-feeding?
Sounds like a post hoc justification to me, Craig.
Calling Helen Clark by her husband's name, illegitimately, is a way of belittling her, even in a joke. You are using the fact that she is a woman to make a dubious joke. Good one.
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And even though it really only means anything inside his particular branch of the church, he sounds like he ranks higher than a pastor of another church who may represent more people.
Oh, this is getting weird. If my (severely traumatised) memory serves, both The Herald on Sunday and The Sunday Star-Times have pretty much stopped using honorifics. Which is one way to get around the problem - but I don't know if I really want newspaper subs deciding who 'deserves' to have their style book on honorifics applied to them.
Let's be up front about this: We don't like Brian Tamiki very much, and it's damn easy to take the piss out of a pompous and spectacularly creepy git who begs for urine extraction every time he opens his mouth. Then again, I don't really like Helen Clark very much either, but I don't see the point of petty rudeness either.
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merc,
Brian's OK, if that's as weird as we can get in the public arena, that's fine by me, at least you know what's coming.
The more I see Helen on TV lately, the more I think of her as our tallest poppy, and I like her for that, if only to confound the nabobs. In years to come we may appreciate Helen more, strangely, that is our way. -
According to my dictionary (Concise Oxford), Miss is an abbreviation of Mistress, which would apply to the PM.
Also, Miss is the title of an unmarried woman or girl without a higher title or retained by married women for professional etc. reasons. this means we should be called her Dr Clark.
Craig, you might need those sarcasm tags sometimes
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Calling Helen Clark by her husband's name, illegitimately, is a way of belittling her, even in a joke. You are using the fact that she is a woman to make a dubious joke. Good one.
Oh, FFS, Deborah... I was belittling mindless pedantry (you know, Victorian forms of address as opposed to the fundamental civility of addressed Helen Clark as she wishes to be addressed), and if you just don't get it, that says much more about you than me.
I don't appreciate being belittled, illegitimately, as a sexist arsehole. And while we're on the subject, there are many women - both inside and outside Parliament - who choose to 'take their husband's name' upon marrying. I respect that too - and while you're riding your moral high horse, you might care to consider what level of respect and civility you're displaying towards their choice.
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I'll go have a coffee and maybe my typos will subside
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Hadyn:
this means we should be called her Dr Clark.Eeek... don't open that can of worms. Personally, I think it's a wee bit pretentious using an academic title in a non-professional or academic context. Then again, I'm sure Michael Cullen and Lockwood Smith (and others) would politely suggest I bugger off, spend years earning a doctorate, get into Parliament and see how I feel then. :) They're entitled to style themselves as such under standing orders, and norms of academic usage, so - once more - my default position is that it's civil to follow their preference.
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Oh, and one more thought - there are any number of women in public life (Christine Rankin, Rosanne Meo & Catherine Tizard immediately come to mind) who didn't stop using the "names" of their former husbands. I don't want to speculate, or much care, why they didn't but I don't think I'd welcome the media unilaterally changing their names.
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Sue,
Forget church
MC Hammer now has his own start up, a you tube type thing of people dancing. If your lucky the man himself will rate your dance moves. http://www.dancejam.com/ -
are you right handed or left handed? I'd imagine that's been enough "disciples" to sustain you in life thus far ....
Ouch! Truce?
Heh heh - took me a while to get the phrasing right (and I still don't think I nailed it). I think maybe we do need emoticons here on PA since some ppl seem to think I'm seriously upset with them. Quite the opposite!
Maybe I should just finish everything with LOL ??
(Actually I do kinda like the TradeMe emoticon of the green face throwing up)Tamaki can call himself Lord High Poo-Bah
Hands off pal, that one's taken already!
"Flintstones, meet The Flintstones, They're a modern Stone-Age fam-ily, ..."
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my recollection is that Clark referred to herself as Ms, not Miss
I don't really like Helen Clark very much either, but I don't see the point of petty rudeness either
sorry Craig, so are you criticizing your self there, or is that sarcasm too?
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Craig, when you quote me can you fix my typos?
:) <-- dreaded emoticon
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Riddley:
Unless there's a lot of sticky keyboards out there, Clark is referred to as 'Miss' - and somehow, I don't think the Prime Minister would bite her tongue if it bothered her that much.
And, no Ridley I'm not being sarcastic. I've actually been in a room with the Demoness Clark, shook her hand, spent a few far from memorable seconds trading meaningless small talk and somehow didn't get dragged off by the DPS. It's called being a grown-up - except when you get paid for being civil to people you don't much like. Then it's called a job. I'm sorry if Deborah has some reading disability, but I don't really care if a woman goes by her maiden name, that of her husband (past or present) or changes it by deed poll to whatever the hell she likes. As far as honorifics go, as long as Clark doesn't decide to style herself 'President for Life' after staging a military coup I'm pretty relaxed on that score too.
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sorry Craig, i said Clark referred to herself as Ms, not Miss
. if others spell it incorrectly that's their problem. there are obviously quite a lot of the "reading disabilities" you refer to out there.I've actually been in a room with the Demoness Clark, shook her hand
pretty rich from the guy who started squealing at the mention of Jonkey.
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if others spell it incorrectly that's their problem.
Somebody call Max Cryer! I think you'll find that Ms. has been accepted as common useage. It even pops up on most forms one is requested to fill out ...
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this means we should be called her Dr Clark.
Umm, Helen Clark doesn't have a doctorate. She started a PhD at Auckland, but never finished it, at least according to wikipedia. Her correct 'prefix' is 'Rt. Hon' (Helen Clark).
And Craig, no need to get titchy because Deborah pointed out your error. Mrs Peter Davies clearly isn't her legitimate name, and we can all safely bet that she never gets invites to dinner addressed to Dr and Mrs Peter Davies either. Huffing now that you don't care what she calls herself makes your earlier post look a little silly.
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Mrs Peter Davies clearly isn't her legitimate name
Man, this is a really weird conversation.
Anyway, in the absence of any discussion that makes the remotest amount of sense, I really have to side with Craig... I'm pretty sure that the point of his original post is that there's no use getting huffy about what bishup Tamaki calls himself. The Clark thing was an example. To paraphrase: "You could get huffy and insist that she should refer to herself Mrs Peter Davies. But that would be stupid."
Apologies if I read wrong.
Tamaki can call himself Lord High Poo-Bah and Super Peitty Princess of the Universe for all I care.
I'd actually prefer it if he did.
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the images on the sleeve looked like they were ripped straight off the VHS. Is that the case?
yes, by Philip Peacock. We blew up the VHS shots to a wall, to give that vague diffusion and took the shot.
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Argh, Kyle thanks. Early morning "research" showed she did the PhD, I never checked if she finished (though i'm not sure if Wikipedia is always an accurate place to get politcal biographies).
And your right, "Rt. Hon" is the correct title.
Heather's got a good paraphrasing, the original post by Craig is a little hard to get that from though on first reading.
I think Miriana Hond asked what she should call Tamaki: "...is it 'Bishop'? Or 'Mr Tamaki'? Or 'Bish Bri'?" Luckily his thugs laughed.
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According to Crockford, the correct formal address for a bishop is "My Lord"......
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