Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Doing over the witness

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  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Mr Mark,

    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ NEW ZEALAND POLICE _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
    Acting Impartially on Behalf of the New Zealand National Party

    NEW ZEALAND POLICE
    --– It’s Our Job To Be Fear! --–

    Wrong Department?

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7480 posts Report Reply

  • Mr Mark,

    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ NEW ZEALAND POLICE _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
    101 Glorious Years Since Massey's Cossacks - The Dream-Run Continues

    Wellington • Since Dec 2009 • 127 posts Report Reply

  • politikiwi, in reply to Dylan Reeve,

    I expect that the content of the communications will be encrypted so as to prevent trivial interception. But encryption requires keys, and if the Police have taken all of Hager's electronic equipment, there is a chance that they will also have taken (intentionally or by accident) copies of the keys used during the encryption.

    You can bet there'll be a thorough search of those machines for files like *.cer, *.pem, etc etc.

    In the absence of evidence that they are not, any encryption or identification keys used to communicate with Nicky Hager should be considered compromised.

    Wellington • Since Sep 2014 • 3 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Mr Mark,

    scabrous behaviour...

    101 Glorious Years Since Massey’s Cossacks

    The long arm of the True Blue & Pinkertons...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7480 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    Information Management 101
    #23: it is best to get your overriding narrative going within minutes of big events…
    :- )

    <Warning: contains 9/11 plane impact footage>

    </thread weaving>

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7480 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Aston,

    Just wondering in terms of context and consequence.
    If the Police successfully identified Rawshark - from Hager's stuff or otherwise - tracked he/she down, arrested and charged them. How serious would the charges be? Would they get a fine, a few years inside, a public flogging ?

    I mean how serious is the theft of emails compared to say, assault, burglary, drugs or murder?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 509 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    The coppers have bagged Nicky Hagers property but are they allowed to examine it yet? And on what basis. Could drives be cloned and sent elsewhere perhaps so technically the local plods can say ‘they’ have not looked.

    The material has all been placed in sealed evidence bags. So no, the cops can't do anything with it at yet. Hager has already said that he'll dispute the warrant, so it will be up to a judge whether the police can use the material gathered.

    I also think it’s pretty legit to say that the cops shouldn’t really be raiding the homes of journalists full stop

    His home is also his place of work. I'd agree that they shouldn't be typically executing warrants on journalists homes, but it's not uncommon to execute them at media organisations. Media typically won't turn over materials to the police, so warrants are the standard way that the police get access to them. I was a victim of police violence in 1993 and the police executed a warrant on TVNZ who had a camera there. Scared the crap out of us until a reporter said that this was the only way that the police would get access to the TVNZ footage - they wouldn't hand it over upon request.

    I agree with Russell though that this is over the top by the police - issuing the warrant while he was there and retrieving less material (his work computer) would be better.

    How can we be sure? Given this Govts history with this stuff, I would think it’s highly likely they’ll be angling for a conviction.

    Well, Nicky seems confident that he's just a witness. So it's probably a sideline in intimidation rather than a lineup for a future conviction (for which it seems pretty clear there's no case whatsoever against him).

    Since Nov 2006 • 6241 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    If you'd like to help Nicky Hager with legal costs related to the search and action he has begun to retrieve his materials, there's a GiveALittle fund.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22227 posts Report Reply

  • Dean Wallis,

    I think John Key has a mental typo - Lord of the Files indeed!

    Point Chevalier • Since Jan 2013 • 43 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Stephen Judd,

    you awful troll you.

    Thanks Stephen, I thought I was alone in that thought.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Tinakori, in reply to Stephen Judd,

    Not trolling, just teasing. So Annette was to blame.

    Wellington • Since Jul 2013 • 114 posts Report Reply

  • Tinakori, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    "The attack on his computers was illegal. But I strongly suspect that the person made the attack with the intention of exposing exactly what was exposed, that is the crime was commited for the public good."

    That's fine as long as the perpetrator is prepared to accept the consequences should they be caught. If they are not it quickly becomes the excuse of the tyrant through the ages - those laws don't apply to me because of my motives and the threat posed by those whose rights I am violating. That isn't healthy for any part of the political spectrum.

    Wellington • Since Jul 2013 • 114 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to CJM,

    And of course, they want you to know they can enter your house and record all aspects of the way you live and your personal circumstances at their leisure (10 hours worth). Explicit intimidation.

    Police do this whenever they want. Suspicion of Drugs gets them in without a warrant and if they discover anything else ,well all good they say. !0 hours is intimidation but if the police are there at the behest of the GCSB or SIS, this is what John Key has created. Of course they will do their bidding first , Judith et al will wait as long as it takes to bury anything of importance. Frankly the police could have got there earlier than the 6 weeks so they may have needed the 6 weeks to read the book and they would have been visiting Hager's lectures to gather intelligence. When they had nothing new, they would have acted. If as it was suggested they seemed sheepish in their raid, I would suggest they actually sympathise with Hager because they know it is more rotten on the other side but have no ability to question the Government unless allowed by said Government.David Parker's complaint wont show up anything strong enough to act on. The modus operandi of raids seems to be the same each time I've been involved. If this was as they say, they would have hit more than just Hager at the same time.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Dean Wallis, in reply to Tinakori,

    That’s fine as long as the perpetrator is prepared to accept the consequences should they be caught. If they are not it quickly becomes the excuse of the tyrant through the ages – those laws don’t apply to me because of my motives and the threat posed by those whose rights I am violating. That isn’t healthy for any part of the political spectrum.

    I'm a bit unclear here - are you describing the Nicky Hagar/Whaledump camp or the John Key/Whaleoil camp?

    Point Chevalier • Since Jan 2013 • 43 posts Report Reply

  • Dylan Reeve, in reply to Trevor Nicholls,

    we know nothing.. so there’s nothing to know. yeah, right.

    I didn't say that either.

    But it's seriously ridiculous for anyone to be saying they know how better police time should be spent with no information at all on how it actually is spent.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2008 • 306 posts Report Reply

  • Dylan Reeve, in reply to politikiwi,

    I expect that the content of the communications will be encrypted so as to prevent trivial interception. But encryption requires keys, and if the Police have taken all of Hager’s electronic equipment, there is a chance that they will also have taken (intentionally or by accident) copies of the keys used during the encryption.

    You can bet there’ll be a thorough search of those machines for files like *.cer, *.pem, etc etc.

    In the absence of evidence that they are not, any encryption or identification keys used to communicate with Nicky Hager should be considered compromised.

    From what I know of Hager's information security policies I find it very unlikely that they'll be able to recover any such keys unless they had the technology and foresight to explore options for recovering them from RAM, but the chances of that being successful are remote at best.

    That said, I'm sure Hager can create new keys to satisfy any of his contacts who are concerned. It seems silly to believe that Hager, given his work and beliefs about the operations and abilities of the SIS and GCSB didn't have a reasonably strong expectation that something like this (or something less overt) would happen at some point and take precautions against it.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2008 • 306 posts Report Reply

  • Dylan Reeve, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Oh god, we're not going into a 9/11 Truth hole here are we?

    Auckland • Since Aug 2008 • 306 posts Report Reply

  • John Morrison, in reply to Marc C,

    I wholeheartedly agree. Further, I cannot understand why there is not an outcry in editorial pages of our major newspapers denouncing this intrusion into a journalist's home and taking his gear. Are the newspapers, tv and radio really going to turn a blind eye to this?

    Cromwell • Since Nov 2006 • 84 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Dylan Reeve,

    There’s clearly no way that Rawshark (or Whaledump, or whatever) knew that he was acting in the public interest when he targeted Slater’s communications.

    Why would he go to Hager once he had it? Clearly he felt he was the best person to deal with the material so I disagree. This was in the public interest and he knew it once it was in his hands and acted accordingly. To suggest his timing of discovery was purely selfish then that is a question to debate but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt just because it was Slime and that excuse for a man has no principles therefore anything goes in his book.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Dylan Reeve,

    Against who? The police have said they are not investing Hager in relation to any crime, no one has suggested he’ll face any charges

    Hey witnesses don't get all their stuff confiscated. Bloody simple as that. Get real.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Dylan Reeve, in reply to Richard Aston,

    I mean how serious is the theft of emails compared to say, assault, burglary, drugs or murder?

    I guess it would depend on what evidence was found and what charges were laid, but Accessing computer system without authorisation carries a sentence of up to two years in prison. Accessing computer system for dishonest purpose may also apply and would be up to seven years.

    Also I'm guessing that it would be possible that Facebook, Slater's Gmail and his web server could all be considered different computer systems which may then add up to multiple counts.

    And if it were found that the same person instigated the DDoS attack at around the same time then that could be Damaging or interfering with computer system which is also up to seven years.

    If the hacker were caught and found to be in possession of software for hacking then that could be another two years for Making, selling, or distributing or possessing software for committing crime

    But I'm not a lawyer or judge, so in practice - who knows? But it's certainly not an area of law that's taken especially lightly.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2008 • 306 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Dylan Reeve,

    The benefit of the doubt I’m giving they police is that they know better than we armchair critics how to manage there resources.

    You mean like massaging figures in crime stats to maintain their budget?

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Dylan Reeve, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    Hey witnesses don’t get all their stuff confiscated. Bloody simple as that. Get real.

    Yeah, they do... all the time. Police seize material evidence very often.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2008 • 306 posts Report Reply

  • Dylan Reeve, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    You mean like massaging figures in crime stats to maintain their budget?

    No, that's not what I mean.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2008 • 306 posts Report Reply

  • Trevor Nicholls, in reply to Dylan Reeve,

    Accessing computer system for dishonest purpose

    ..which is what blubber-byproduct does every time he touches a keyboard.

    Wellington, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 290 posts Report Reply

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