Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Fabrication and humanity

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  • Idiot Savant,

    It's hard to divine a basis for allowing him to stay in New Zealand.

    Not really. What matters in assessing the danger Panah will face if deported to Iran (and despite the Minister's claims to the contrary, that is the only option. Quite apart from the fact that any transfer to a third country will inevitably result in return to persecution in Iran, we don't accept other people's political problems; why should they accept ours) is not Panah's beliefs then, but his beliefs now. And any objective assessment of his religious activities can only reach the conclusion that he is a genuine Christian.

    As I pointed out yesterday, Panah talks about his god, goes to church, prays, and attempts to convert people. This is more than most New Zealanders who profess Christianity ever do, and if we were presented these same facts about anyone else, we would have no difficulty in accepting the genuineness of their faith. And yet we don't when it comes to Panah. Is it because he is brown?

    The RSAA may be legally forbidden from reaching that conclusion (their findings of fact are final, so that initial finding in the first decision was carried over unexamined into the second, and will no doubt be reiterated in any subsequent appeal regardless of the actual facts), but the Iranians will certainly reach it, and Panah will face persecution and possibly murder as a result. And that is what matters to me: the government is proposing to deport a man to persecution and possible death. That is morally unacceptable, and if it is what "process" requires, then so much the worse for process.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1717 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Unlawful protest is still an option, no matter what the courts say. It should mostly be reserved for things that really matter. I'm conflicted about whether getting in Bush's face is one of those things. It's likely to be as physically dangerous as everything else associated with the man.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    Panah talks about his god, goes to church, prays, and attempts to convert people. This is more than most New Zealanders who profess Christianity ever do, and if we were presented these same facts about anyone else, we would have no difficulty in accepting the genuineness of their faith.

    . . . attempts to convert people??? Sorry, to me that's hardly a tenet of genuine religious faith. In a tolerant society the need to constantly proselytise is more an indication of an ongoing need to reinforce a shallow and unexamined belief system.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    Sydney goes into lockdown

    Not really, Sydney is a big place and only a small part is being sealed off. It would be the same as saying Auckland was in lockdown when in fact only the Viaduct area was closed. But yes, the media have latched on to this word Lockdown.
    I expect (some of) the protest action to get nasty, although they will be hammered by the security forces.
    I was in Melbourne in 2000 and joined in the protest (against the WEF). There's something about being told where you can and can't go that rankles, and it's exacerbated when you see just how much money they've spent (and the measures taken) to ensure you do. So you can't help but think it's your duty to rark 'em up and push the envelope. Not that I was stupid enough to get my head cracked.

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    . . . attempts to convert people??? Sorry, to me that's hardly a tenet of genuine religious faith. In a tolerant society the need to constantly proselytise is more an indication of an ongoing need to reinforce a shallow and unexamined belief system.

    In which case a fair chunk of NZ's self-described Christians fall into that category. Yet we accept their religious beliefs as genuine all the same.

    My point here isn't to talk about what Christianity is or isn't - I'll leave that fight to the Christians. Instead, it's that different standards are being applied - standards which we would find highly insulting if applied to ourselves. And that is wrong.

    (Still, it could be worse - Panah could be an atheist. How the hell are meant to prove that?)

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1717 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    There's something about being told where you can and can't go that rankles

    I think what rankles more is that it is being done in an effort to regulate what you can and can't say.

    BTW, I hope the sight of the disruption to Sydney will convice Kiwis that we should never, ever, host such a meeting here. And if it doesn't, just think what closing the Auckland motorway so that Bush doesn't get stuck in traffic on his way to the airport would do...

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1717 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    As for Panah: why didn't he just do what the Russians and the Turks do? Find a Kiwi girl, seduce her, marry her, and leave her once residency is confirmed?

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • Gary Hutchings,

    (Still, it could be worse - Panah could be an atheist. How the hell are meant to prove that?)

    He has been engaged in a long standing exchange of emails and letters with Richard Dawkins, and carries around books from Marx, Nietzsche, Satre and Betrand Russell :)

    wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 108 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    And if it doesn't, just think what closing the Auckland motorway so that Bush doesn't get stuck in traffic on his way to the airport would do...

    I thought this was done when President Clinton arrived?
    But then again, it was a Saturday ...

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    (Still, it could be worse - Panah could be an atheist. How the hell are meant to prove that?)

    According to one of the benchmarks you find acceptable as a test of genuine Christianity, by attempting to foist his beliefs onto others.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Thomas,

    Ali Panah will be fine if he returns to Iran, Jesus will protect him. he told me so last night. God also said we're going to win the world cup. yeeeah!

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 317 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    He has been engaged in a long standing exchange of emails and letters with Richard Dawkins, and carries around books from Marx, Nietzsche, Satre and Betrand Russell :)

    Which would be quite unusual for an atheist. Most simply live their lives without religion. But its rather difficult to prove a negative. How, for example, would you prove to an extreme sceptic (e.g. the RSAA) that you actually have no religious beliefs, as opposed to simply failing to practice them like most religious kiwis do?

    Sure, you can tell them. But if they refuse to believe anything you say about your lack of faith, then its very difficult to prove anything at all.

    In everyday life, on questions of religion or lack thereof, we almost always accept that people are what they say they are. Given the centrality of religion to some refugee claims, the RSAA probably needs to go a little further, but it seems that their position of extreme scepticism is taking it way too far.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1717 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Andrew,

    I find your lack of faith disturbing

    Hamiltron - City of the F… • Since Nov 2006 • 900 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Not really, Sydney is a big place and only a small part is being sealed off. It would be the same as saying Auckland was in lockdown when in fact only the Viaduct area was closed. But yes, the media have latched on to this word Lockdown.

    And who would blame them? It looks like the real story is that the media covering APEC are going out of the skulls with boredom, as they're pushed from carefully staged 'media event' to nicely framed photo op. Shit, they've got to file something to justify the expense claims. :)

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I/S, that Salient piece is very far indeed from an accurate representation of the RSAA's 2006 finding. The authority didn't find any evidence he presented to be credible, including "patently false documents" presented to demonstrate that his life was in danger in Iran.

    As I said, I don't deny the humanitarian dimension here, but I really think his supporters have made flagrantly misleading statements about the nature of the case.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    . . . its rather difficult to prove a negative.

    In a tolerant society such as that which Panah aspires to live in, yes indeed. But not, presumably, in theocratic Iran, where it's supposedly a crime to be a godless apostate. Wouldn't Panah be just as much at risk on his return if he'd declared himself to be an atheist?

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Given the centrality of religion to some refugee claims, the RSAA probably needs to go a little further, but it seems that their position of extreme scepticism is taking it way too far.

    OTOH, this is the same "extreme scepticism" that led the authority to question claims about Ahmed Zaoui's background from the New Zealand security services, and to go to some lengths to demonstrate that they were not credible.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    And just as a general issue, I'd rather not have refugee claims (or any other immigration decision, for that matter) hinge on the level of sympathetically pathetic media coverage you can hit the incumbent Minister over the head with.

    That's not a policy, and it's certainly not a responsible use of ministerial discretion I'm not sure should exist in the first place. It's poll driven fruitcake.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    Russell: I was actually going off the rulings, which I found a few days ago. And again, what matters isn't any "patently false documents" he presented in the past, but what his religious beliefs are now.

    There is another issue here, and that is the RSAA's approach to claims of religious discrimination in Iran. I've read a fair number of the recent cases (they're handily searchable by country and topic), and they seem to be demanding evidence of actual persecution before departure to justify a refugee claim. But as Amnesty International and other human rights NGOs argue, this is setting the bar too high. Here's what they have to say in their 2007 Report about religious persecution in Iran:

    Several evangelical Christians, mostly converts from Islam, were detained, apparently in connection with their religious activities.

    • In September, Fereshteh Dibaj and her husband, Reza Montazemi, were detained for nine days before being released on bail. Fereshteh Dibaj is the youngest daughter of convert Mehdi Dibaj who was murdered in 1994 shortly after being released from prison where he had been held for nine years for "apostasy".

    And in a 2006 report following the election of the current government:

    Since President Ahmadinejad’s election, members of Iran’s religious minorities have also been killed, detained or harassed solely in connection with their faith. Even the recognized religious minorities of Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians face discrimination in law and practice with respect to employment, marriage, and criminal sanctions. Unrecognized religions such as the Baha’is, Ahl-e Haq and Sabeaens (Mandeaens) are at particular risk of discrimination. Converts from Islam can risk arrest, attack or the death penalty.(21) Official statements from time to time create an atmosphere in which human rights abuses by non-state actors against minorities may be encouraged. For example, on 20 November 2005, Ayatollah Jannati, the Secretary General of the Council of Guardians which vets legislation passed by the Majles to ensure its conformity with Islamic Law, stated in a speech at a commemoration of those killed in the 1980-1988 war with Iraq that "human beings, apart from Muslims, are animals who roam the earth and engage in corruption".

    2.2.1 Christians

    Prisoner of conscience Hamid Pourmand, who converted to Christianity from Islam over 25 years previously, remained in prison after being sentenced to three years’ imprisonment by a military court in February 2005 on charges of deceiving the Iranian armed forces about his religion and ‘acts against national security’. In May 2005 he was acquitted of further charges of apostasy. He was arrested along with 84 others at the annual general conference of Iran’s Assemblies of God Church in Karaj in September 2004; all the others were later released.(22)

    Ghorban Dordi Tourani, 50, an ethnic Turkmen convert from Islam who pastored an independent house church of convert Christians in Gonbad-e-Kavus, was killed by unknown assailants on 22 November. After his body was found outside his house, up to 10 other Christians in various cities were reportedly detained briefly by officials of the Ministry of Intelligence and may have been tortured. Christian leaders are also reported to have been warned to tell Protestant pastors of house churches that "the government knows what you are doing, and we will come for you soon". Ghorban Dordi Tourani is the fifth Protestant pastor to be killed by unknown assailants in 11 years.(23)

    While the government is right to point out that there is no UNHCR directive against deporting people to Iran,any reasonable person would conclude that Christian converts from Islam face a significant risk of persecution. And against this backdrop, telling converts that they can simply keep their faith secret (as the RSAA has said in one case) is akin to telling Jews trying to flee Nazi Germany that they could just hide (and yes, before anybody squeals, I am quite aware that the Iranian government isn't rounding people up and sticking them in gas chambers).

    Amnesty's argument is that if genuine Christian converts from Iran don't qualify for refugee status, the government should provide them with protection anyway rather than deporting them to that sort of persecution. I agree with that position. Christian converts face a significant risk of persecution in Iran, therfore we should not deport them there.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1717 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    Wouldn't Panah be just as much at risk on his return if he'd declared himself to be an atheist?

    Indeed. But how the hell would he prove it to the satisfaction of the RSAA? How could anyone?

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1717 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Andrew,

    From the quotes above, it looks like he'd only have to prove he wasn't a moslem, since pretty much everyone who doesn't follow Islam is at risk. That couldn't be too hard...

    Hamiltron - City of the F… • Since Nov 2006 • 900 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    Maybe the US had it right all along, maybe we should try rendition? Okay, maybe not. But I'm not keen on ppl coming here and subverting the Refugee process. If ppl want to rip up passports in planes then they aren't helping their case.
    I don't want to see anyone deported to their death, but if we're not careful we could end up with an influx of gay christians from totalitarian islamic regimes. Leaving no room for those poor white Afrikaaners.

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • kmont,

    I don't want to see anyone deported to their death, but if we're not careful we could end up with an influx of gay christians from totalitarian islamic regimes. Leaving no room for those poor white Afrikaaners.

    ; )

    wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 485 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    From the quotes above, it looks like he'd only have to prove he wasn't a moslem, since pretty much everyone who doesn't follow Islam is at risk.

    There are something like 300,000 Christians in Iran, part of a 2% non-Muslim minority that includes 25,000 Persian Jews.

    From the Wikipedia article on Christianity in Iran:

    Due to the socio-economic and political pressures in the years following the Iranian Revolution, periods of outright persecution and times of more latent discrimination many Iranian Christians, both as part of the general exodus of Iranians and as response to the specific pressures, have emigrated, mostly to the USA, Canada and Western Europe. In 2000, about 0.4% of Iran's population were Christians. In 1975, Christians numbered about 1.5% of the total population. Statistically, a much larger percentage of non-Muslims have emigrated out of Iran.

    Despite its long history in Iran, Christianity has often been seen by Islamic Republic as sympathetic to western ideals.[citation needed] The persecution of the Protestant churches has perhaps been more severe for this very reason. While the government guarantees the recognised Christian minorities a number of rights (production and sale of non-halal foods), guaranteed representation in parliament, special family law etc, Government intrusion, expropriation of property, forced closure and persecution, particularly in the initial years after the Iranian Revolution, have all been documented. Most prominent has been the death of Haik Hovsepian Mehr, bishop of the Jamiat-e Rabbani, in 1994. Recently the continuing imprisonment of Hamid Pourmand a lay pastor of Jammiat-e Rabboni and the murder of Ghorban Tourani, the pastor of an independent evangelical church have created international concern.

    The Jamiat-e Rabbani churches and the Anglican Church are both readily accepting converts from Islam and are subsequently growing in membership. About 80% of Jamiat-e Rabbani's members are currently converts from Islam. The majority of other Christian denominations continues to shrink due to emigration.

    So clearly, it's not the easiest place to be a Christian, but it's not an automatic death sentence either, even for converts.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

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