Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Fix up, young men

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  • giovanni tiso, in reply to B Jones,

    Dadrock is full of misogyny and you don't even notice it, it's just part of the wallpaper.

    One of my favourite/unfavourites is the Alan Parsons Project's album Eve, which as far as misogynist lyrics go is pretty revolting. Except I didn't know until I learned to speak enough English. I think about it now every time someone has a go at hip hop lyrics.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Chrys Berryman,

    ..went to a Bob Marley gig in London in 1977,spliffs the size of my arm were circulating [Im a small guy]…….the vibe was very mellow man…..despite being frisked by the biggest West Indian security guard in the world on the way in..because the night before a young man stabbed another young man to death near the stage……
    ….out of it young men are a menace….I hated being a teenager in the 60's,misogyny and bullying weren't mentioned at all then….they were a way of life…..that women and small guys endured……..

    Pt Chevalier • Since Sep 2014 • 16 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Russell Brown,

    But maybe you could ease up a bit too. You've been a little bit in danger of telling everyone else how the topic should be discussed, i.e. your way. I know very well that's not your intention, but it can feel that way.

    Fair point, and acknowledged.

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2930 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Ali Gill,

    Thanks for the link. Sweet article. The way TV adverts portray dads has always appalled me.

    I've realised the instructions below are a bit geeky. If anyone wants to just put the whole address in like that, just paste it and the site will turn it into a link automatically.

    It's only if you want to tuck it beneath some text that you need to use the square brackets and put the http address ('url') on the left of the vertical bar and the displayed words on its right. Hope that helps someone. :)

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19683 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    Alan Parsons Project

    Heh. Sausage-heavy musical genre obsessed with virtuosity contains problematic lyrics about women? I'm shocked. SHOCKED I say. ;)

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to Deborah,

    Having said that, the very public harassment that is discussed in Russell’s post… well, that does feel different to me. Something about the display of it, and thinking that it’s clever to display yourself as a harassing fool so prominently.

    Am I right in thinking that there's a substantial link between this form of sexual harassment, at least, and bullying culture? (Exerting power that doesn't come from merit of the action so much as from privilege or position, or something else unrelated, or something like that.)

    Is it reasonable to think that generally addressing either culture could positively affect the other? Or am I drawing a bad connection?

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1139 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to nzlemming,

    Fair point, and acknowledged.

    Cheers man. I didn't always do well either. Have a good weekend.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22749 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Deborah,

    There's a great comic that explains this here: What men need to understand about sexual harassment.

    That is wonderful. Thank you. Recommended read.

    I'd add that people who seek to control or attack others always do so out of feeling weak, not strong. That's why they are invariably cowardly bullies who only pick on people they see as less powerful. Sexism, racism, ablism, etc does the rest.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19683 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Danielle,

    I think APP was really not prog rock, but yeah, they kept the "thematic album" aspect and it turns out it didn't mesh well with their huge evangelical Christianity-induced problem with women. More to the point, I really don't recall this being considered at all remarkable at the time.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    July 1980;
    As I was leaving the Ramones show at the Logan Campbell Centre, which I'd experienced from the seated senior citizen comfort of the upstairs section, I met the illustrious Murray Cammick, who'd photographed the event from the seatless downstairs mosh pit.

    He described how he'd seen a boot boy pulling a young woman's hair on the dance floor. Because he recognised the guy as a former pupil from his time as an art teacher he yelled at him to let go, calling him by his surname. Although the guy appeared to be totally out of it he instantly reverted to schoolboy mode and obeyed.

    When the young woman thanked him he explained that it wasn't a big problem because he used to teach the guy. Oh really, she said, so what did you teach him then, kung fu?

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4591 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to izogi,

    Am I right in thinking that there’s a substantial link between this form of sexual harassment, at least, and bullying culture?

    I think there's a huge connection there – and one where we can actually draw a link with the Prime Ministerial ponytail-pulling and breakfast radio stunts. It's the cruelty.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22749 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    Although the guy appeared to be totally out of it he instantly reverted to schoolboy mode and obeyed.

    I wonder if that’s a boot boy thing. Making a point of exercising authority seemed to work with them, as I remember it. I recall an uninvited group beating up David Mitchell from Goblin Mix (it was always Dave who got it) at one of my parties and me sending them packing by simply ordering them out. Mind you, they did nick a flag and kick in the glass in the door downstairs on their way out …

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22749 posts Report Reply

  • Joanna,

    Attachment

    When I said Sacha liked referring to women as their genitals, it's this kind of shit that I meant. And sure if you'd like to derail what I said, then by all means, post screenshots of me calling men cocks, just make sure you're also posting screenshots of the dominant culture that has for thousands of centuries treated women purely as breeding machines.

    I haven't chosen to just email you about the incredibly problematic people on PAS, Russell, because I think it's incredibly important others see and can feel validated knowing they are not the only ones with that unease. And I thought that perhaps my extensive suggestions after that might actually be listened to, but instead it was just another round of back-patting. I'm done.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 746 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Joanna,

    When I said Sacha liked referring to women as their genitals, it’s this kind of shit that I meant.

    Ah. I thought it was the time he got piled on for saying “balls” (And I would stand by the description of that as a pile-on – it was an unpleasant and OTT mob-job. It hurt him.). This is the time he was attacked, a couple of years ago I think, by the same group for complaining about the Kardashians dominating the news. He certainly shouldn’t have said “twat” to a woman.

    And sure if you’d like to derail what I said, then by all means, post screenshots of me calling men cocks, just make sure you’re also posting screenshots of the dominant culture that has for thousands of centuries treated women purely as breeding machines.

    I would not do so. Why would I do so?

    You’ve sneered on Twitter just now about “back-patting” on the last couple of pages of this thread, but to me the ability to resolve is actually better than constant conflict. It’s the reason the site is still here after all this time.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22749 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Joanna,

    Ah, that. Only time I've ever used the word in public. Here's how it happened.

    I RTed a tweet by a (female) (Wellington) GP complaining that the 6pm TV news was running a non-story about Kim Kardashian. The declining state of our media was hardly a cold topic at the time, so I agreed with her.

    Someone then accused me of only saying that was because KK was a woman and I was a nasty sexist. As it happens I find Brit princes equally irrelevant as 'news' and I said no, that was not where I was coming from.

    Outraged students intervened that I was surely missing her brilliance as a media entrepreneur. A short while later the same person then had *another* go at me for being sexist, and the screencap shows my exasperated response - though you have left out the tweet I was actually responding to. Champion editing, there.

    A minor pile-on ensued. Queen Stephanie Rogers triumphantly declared that see, I'm a horrible sexist man.

    I subsequently blocked a handful of fuckwits, and made it clear I do not tolerate people accusing me of bad faith. I also apologised to all my followers for my lack of grace, and noted that tired tweets do not serve any of us well.

    I trust the people who know me to apply some context. I trust eveyone else to be grown-ups about how language, politics, and their feelings interact. If you can't do that then feel free to ignore me. I'm not that important, really.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19683 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Russell Brown,

    He certainly shouldn’t have said “twat” to a woman.

    agreed.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19683 posts Report Reply

  • Tess Rooney,

    A few days ago I happened to be staying at the Wellington YHA for one night when the Sevens was on. It was horrible to hear the dunk guys cat call women on the street from their rooms. It was really disgusting stuff.

    I don't know if men were ever different, but the thing that got me was the barely concealed vibe of loathing towards these women who they didn't even know. I personally have never experienced that before.

    I was grateful to stay in our tiny room (with the curtains closed) and avoid being on the streets. I was worried for the safety of women out that night with so many drunk men around. The YHA staff were good and they dealt with people who behaving badly inside, but it wasn't a pleasant night.

    When I was at uni in the 90s and we would have our end of lectures stein at Canterbury, I don't remember stuff like this. I didn't feel unsafe even with all the drunk guys. Maybe I was just lucky then and I missed the bad stuff happening. Maybe unis are still safe havens, I really don't know. What I do know is that I will avoid Wellington central when the Sevens are on in the future.

    Since May 2009 • 267 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Russell Brown,

    You’ve sneered on Twitter

    A habit which appals me. Bring it here, cowards.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19683 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Sacha,

    Don't pick a fight, Sacha, please. It's Friday evening and I want to be able to just watch some TV.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22749 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Tess Rooney,

    What I do know is that I will avoid Wellington central when the Sevens are on in the future.

    Hmmm. It's not the first time that event's come up.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22749 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to Russell Brown,

    There were a number of regular women posters who no longer post here or who post way less than they did. There are probably several reasons for this but I think we have to consider the possibility that one of those reasons is that PAS doesn't "do" feminist stuff as well as it might, but is concomitantly pretty unwilling to accept that it isn't a totally reasonable and enlightened community.

    Not sure what the solution is for that, but I thought I'd put it out there.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Danielle,

    Thanks Danielle. I am thinking abut this. I don't think banning Sacha on the basis of the above would be appropriate or helpful though.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22749 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to Sacha,

    There are a lot of valid reasons for not posting here, Sacha, and I'd prefer not to be abused by you because sometimes I just can't face it.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Danielle,

    seriously? how is that abusing *you*

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19683 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to Sacha,

    You just called anyone having a sub-conversation about this thread (or any other) on Twitter a coward. I am having a sub-conversation about this thread on Twitter: ergo, I am a coward. Not sure how this is unclear to you.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

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