Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: God's squads

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  • Jason Kemp,

    "Perhaps this time more PIs will actually be led elsewhere by faith, but I'll believe it when it happens."

    I agree - blanket voting by PI is unlikely. Sheer legwork and effort will help but that is not the same thing.

    Politicians will always appeal to vlaue based affiliations plus others like race or culture.

    I recently revisited the 8 Tribes concept and the PI community belongs to all of those different "tribes" just the same way as general population.

    You might argue that PI groups in South Auckland are more likely to fit a particular outlook and share certain core values.

    Jill Caldwell dropped by and commented on some of this.

    "The Otara tribe certainly wasn’t there to contain all the brown people of New Zealand, as some Grey Lynners seemed to imagine.

    It was just for the people who’d recently arrived from the third world. New Zealand’s ethnic minorities - Maori, Pacific and Asian people are distributed across all the 8 tribes, just as its Caucasian majority is. As I thought to myself the other day when I saw Oscar Kightley coming out of the Wholefoods store in Grey Lynn. Well actually it was the shop next door.

    In a fabulous process of cultural metamorphosis, as different cultures become more prominent in a social tribe, the tribe’s values change to accommodate them."

    elections 8 tribes style comment

    I also saw a number of 300,000 Asian voters pop up on The Global Indian. Seems like there will be extra votes from Korean and Sikh groups this time and probably some of those voters will cross party lines to make a point.

    Apparently there are at least 5 high profile Asian candidates some of who will get in on listwith a vote to either National or Labour.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 364 posts Report Reply

  • dc_red,

    And the Nats chose Clem Simich over David Kirk, if I recall?

    Oil Patch, Alberta • Since Nov 2006 • 706 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    Groan. How exactly do either of these things undermine anyone's moral values? Are all strongly-held values suddenly out the window when they are no longer enforced in/through law?

    Because pretty clearly, they let other people sin without punishment.

    The post-enlightenment view that that's between you and whatever spiritual entities you do or don't believe in (or who wil eat your brains regardless) is utterly lost on them. instead, they cling to a medieval, theocratic conception of the state as an arm of the church, with a key role of enforcing (their perverse conception of) virtue.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1711 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    I wonder if there's something there about deeply fearing the power of temptation?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19686 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Litterick,

    As Mr Brown notes, I have been quiet on this issue. But really, nothing has been happening. The Christian Right has all but vanished. The moral hysteria stirred up by Maxim and its cronies during the Civil Unions debeate has evaporated. I think the campaign against repeal of Section 59 did for it. They became ridiculous in the eyes of mainstream New Zealanders and embarrassing for their core supporters: people in evangelical churches do not want to be represented by child beaters.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1000 posts Report Reply

  • Mikaere Curtis,

    Rather off-topic, but can anyone explain why the people of Epsom look set to re-elect Rodney Hide?

    I had a long conversation about this with an Epsom voter on Sunday while I was campaigning for the Greens. He said that Rodney does a lot of local campaigning, and that Richard Worth comes across as a snob.

    Given tactical voting in terms of delivering a National government (not to mention that fact the Worth will get in automatically via the list), I suspect that voting for Rodney is seen as a means to an end, and not necessarily an endorsement in itself.

    Does anybody else suspect that Rodney's jacket was purposefully afoul of the EFA so he could whinge about the "absurdity of the act" ?

    Unlike last election, parties are actually able to comply with the rules because they know what they are upfront.

    Tamaki Makaurau • Since Nov 2006 • 528 posts Report Reply

  • David Ritchie,

    Rather off-topic, but can anyone explain why the people of Epsom look set to re-elect Rodney Hide?

    It's the 2nd-richest electorate in the country. The percentage of the electorate which earns > 100K is higher than any other. It makes sense they'd elect Mr. Flat Tax.

    Since Nov 2006 • 166 posts Report Reply

  • LegBreak,

    And Labour had Chris Laidlaw and the late Ken Grey (sadly never got to make it to parliament)

    And NZ First had Tu Wylie.

    Ex rugby players reasonably evenly distributed I’d have thought.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1162 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    all they do is make up the numbers on the back-benches for one or two terms, then get the boot. If Jones or Tuigamala ever become National Party MPs, exactly the same will happen to them.

    I can't see Jones accepting that.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19686 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    I'm amazed that anyone's amazed about Michael Jones

    Didn't Jones come out in support of National in a previous election?

    Talking about previous elections, didn't National try and form a Government in 2005 despite not being the "largest party"?

    Where was their "moral mandate" then and where were the damming editorials?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • philipmatthews,

    That Selwyn Manning analysis is fascinating indeed, especially around his prediction that the Nats might take Auckland Central. I know that the Kiwiblog right have been saying this all year, but then you'd expect them to. Interesting to see it coming from somewhere more neutral.

    I've been out of Auckland for a year, so what are Aucklanders' views on this? A result of gentrification -- the Herne Bay effect -- or dissatisfaction with Tizard? Or both?

    From what I know of the South Island, I'd say Manning's calling that right, which makes me confident about his views on the north.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2007 • 656 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I can't see Jones accepting that.

    And I wouldn't want to tear down his credentials either: Wikipedia says he has earned himself a B.A., an M.A., and a BPlan from Auckland University, and his community service has been officially honored.

    Unfortunately he also has what I would regard as extreme, superstitious and misguided views on various social issues.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22754 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen,

    It makes sense they'd elect Mr. Flat Tax.

    But, take a look at the party vote - even the Greens got more votes: 1,941 votes, while ACT got 1,237. Labour got about 10k while National was miles ahead with about 20k.
    http://tinyurl.com/5anj28

    Auckland • Since Apr 2008 • 47 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    It's really not as easy to put christians in the same boxes that you could put US christians. I spent a week recently with conservative christians in North Carolina. You would think by listening to them that Obama had horns.

    And don't they make good unchallenging copy? Then you might spend a week with the congregation of a black church ten miles down the road where the bone spurs are on the forehead of John McCain. I can understand the human urge to shove tens of millions of people in a confortable box, but instead I'd recommend laying hands on a copy of Garry Wills' http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9781594201462,00.html__Head and Heart: American Christianities__ which takes a more nuanced, detailed and historically informed perspective.

    What is really interesting is a debate -- largely conducted below the MSM radar -- among evangelical churches that are trying to detach themselves from politics in general, and the GOP in particular. Just to take one recent example, I've been surprised (and quietly pleased) that a good number of Mormons are vocally - and publically - pissed off at the church becoming involved in the California Prop. 8 campaign.

    Nadine Hansen, who runs Mormonsfor8.com, said the church decided to enter politics and can't excuse itself for the ramifications.

    "Any group that gets involved in the political arena has to be treated like a political action committee," said Hansen, 61, a Mormon who lives in Cedar City, Utah, and has stopped going to church. "You can't get involved in politics and say, 'Treat me as a church.' "Hansen said she focused on Mormons because she is one. She said Mormons have contacted her to shut the site, saying it was being used by the Daily Kos campaign in a "witch hunt."

    "I didn't think there were any witches on the list, so I wasn't worried," said Hansen, whose site is "neutral" on its views, though she is opposed because she views it as "divisive."

    Strange days...

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    I've been out of Auckland for a year, so what are Aucklanders' views on this? A result of gentrification -- the Herne Bay effect -- or dissatisfaction with Tizard? Or both?

    Well it's my seat and think it's probably a bit of both. I'm considering Kaye solely because for the love of Christ I want some modern views in the National caucus and perhaps she's a start. The fact she backs McCain over Obama suggests maybe she's not that modern face though!
    Would love to get a chance to question her on what she'd change about the National Party if she could...

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Julie Fairey,

    I too was appalled at Farrar's post on the fall video, the kind of thing that a year ago Whaleoil would have done and Farrar would have linked to, but he wouldn't have done it directly himself. As in 2005 he seems to have been infected by the campaign again. I wonder what will happen with Kiwiblog next year, whether National wins or not.

    And in a shameless plug, I've written about an Act blogger being a total dick at the TVNZ7 Epsom debate with links to a couple of other incidents from the campaign trail which Anjum has covered, including the bizarre (and creepy) incident of someone writing a letter to her parents to complain about her.

    Forgive my feminist heart for telling me that many times these are attacks male candidates would not face.

    As for leftie Christians, the Labour list has quite a few actually, including my partner who attends what must be one of the most right-on Anglican churches in the Auckland area. They even run a fair trade stall once a month. Something about Michael Joseph Savage and "applied christianity" comes to mind :-)

    I've been having some interesting conversations with people about abortion on the campaign trail, and I've come to the conclusion that most NZers don't actually know what the law is, or how it works. If there's going to be any change to the law in the next Parliament there's going to need to be some major education campaigning around that first imho. (And the survey responses we've been getting at The Hand Mirror from candidates shows they aren't any better informed)

    Puketapapa Mt Roskill, AK… • Since Dec 2007 • 234 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    I couldn't believe my ears when I heard this yesterday
    "We don't want our people just working in factories", said Tuigamala. "We want them starting to own those factories."
    Yeah, like seizing the means of production. I always knew National were closet Marxists ;-)

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Grant McDougall,

    And Labour had Chris Laidlaw and the late Ken Grey (sadly never got to make it to parliament)

    And NZ First had Tu Wylie.

    Ex rugby players reasonably evenly distributed I’d have thought.

    Laidlaw was briefly an Alliance MP after winning a by-election, then lost at the following general election.

    I named three All Blacks that became National MPs, you've only named one for three other parties. Plus, Tu Wylie only ever played for the Maori All Blacks, not the "proper" All Blacks.
    At 3:1, per party, hardly "reasonably evenly distributed", I reckon.

    Dunedin • Since Dec 2006 • 759 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    Would love to get a chance to question her on what she'd change about the National Party if she could...

    Ha - just searched Facebook to see if I could find her in order to do this. FB responded with:
    There are no results for national party. Did you mean Rational Pixy?

    Now THAT party, I'd vote for...

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • B Jones,

    I don't pretend to understand the culture, but a blanket ban on abortion, as per Family First policy, wouldn't seem to tally with the relatively abortion rate of PI women.

    I assume there's meant to be a "high" in there?

    It's entirely understandable. In conservative cultures where there's a social stigma attached to premarital sex and unmarried parenthood, abortion allows women in those groups to transgress and get away with it. A high abortion rate means not so much that the group with that rate thinks it's ok, but that the group thinks that the alternatives are significantly worse, on a personal level. They might well still believe on a societal level that sinners should suffer the consequences.

    Personal decisions can often become a voice of mutiny against a broader moral consensus.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 976 posts Report Reply

  • Julie Fairey,

    In terms of Auckland Central, Kaye has been doing a lot of hard work and my impression is that she is very strictly following the party line of avoiding whenever possible saying something the listener might not want to hear.

    At the Suffrage Eve debate she started off being very canny but when she realised that the audience was pretty left she completely lost interest and sat there flipping through her policy folder. The only exceptions were when she talked about Herceptin, and used the standard National scare-tactic lines about it. Very worrying, because she's been door knocking, targeting women, and telling them stuff about Herceptin as a miracle drug that simply isn't true. Quite apart from politicising a drug buying process that has been quite deliberately de-politicised for good reason.

    I have no sense of how Tizard is doing at all. But I am worried.

    Puketapapa Mt Roskill, AK… • Since Dec 2007 • 234 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    "We don't want our people just working in factories", said Tuigamala. "We want them starting to own those factories."
    Yeah, like seizing the means of production. I always knew National were closet Marxists ;-)

    Yeah, I had the same thought when I read that this morning. Absolutely classic Freudian slip.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • LegBreak,

    No, Laidlaw was Labour, beating Denis Welsh (ex-Listener) of the Alliance in the by-election.

    Ken Grey won the nomination for a safe Labour seat, so it’s reasonable to count him too.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1162 posts Report Reply

  • JohnAmiria,

    __"We don't want our people just working in factories", said Tuigamala. "We want them starting to own those factories."__
    Yeah, like seizing the means of production. I always knew National were closet Marxists ;-)

    You is confusing seizing with starting.
    National = starting things and creating wealth so we can all afford 10 minute hot showers
    Labour = taking your sh1t off you and completely running your life and don't argue matey we're giving you Working For Families - we know what's good for you

    ;- )

    hither and yon • Since Aug 2008 • 215 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    I too was appalled at Farrar's post on the fall video, the kind of thing that a year ago Whaleoil would have done and Farrar would have linked to, but he wouldn't have done it directly himself. As in 2005 he seems to have been infected by the campaign again.

    Infected by too much time together lately in their cosy lil "blogmobile", surely. The tone of the pimply sniggering teen who fears the girls is coming through loud and clear.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19686 posts Report Reply

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