Hard News: Miracles just rate better, okay?
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Interesting... I find myself nodding (empathetically and scientifically) at both Russell and Peter.
I've heard that story from you in person, Russell, and shared your sense of utter marvel at the unexpected and instantaneous change in Jimmy. It reminds me of another story I heard from a PA reader a long time ago (who may or may not want to share here) about how an accidental injury apparently cured their child of something very similar. It makes a certain kind of sense that an unexpected bump or wriggle could well *fix* the sort of injury or strain we often acquire under similar circs. E.g. if rolling over in bed the wrong way can put my neck out, can rolling over on a massage table the right way put it back?
"Interesting and worthy of further exploration" is a nice formulation, although a sceptic and a scientist might formulate that "further exploration" very differently, as seems to be happening in this discussion.
And then I hear Peter and think yeah, he's right, babies do just randomly grow out of things and who knows? Maybe Jimmy was just getting over it that day and the attention and cuddle certainly didn't hurt. Plus, I share some of Peter's heebie-jeebies about the osteo-chiro industry; my one and only visit to a chiropracter (for post-birth musculo-skeletal issues) was horrible, alarming, dubious and totally unhelpful; the guy was a classic shyster and had he not been recommended by midwives I trusted, I would have run a mile as soon as look at him. I fretted about it for months afterwards and still shudder when I think about it.
And then on the other hand, I have experienced a couple of mini-miraculous moments with basic massage therapy - not during or from the massage itself, but from the freaky woo-woo largely-hands-off moments at the end of it. One in particular sticks in my mind; what I can only describe as a radical unlocking feeling somewhere in my solar plexus, which changed the atmosphere in the room and had both me and my massage person saying "what was THAT?!" despite no external or visible effects.
(No, you rude people, it wasn't one of those; I can tell the difference. Craig made a nice point above, though, about the -- ahem -- relaxing and therapeutic value of kind words and calm gentle touch, which should never be underestimated, viz. pet therapy in general and in particular; see also Giovanni's pizza therapy).
Anecdotes, not very helpful, I know - I guess I just wanted to interpose a perspective that sits somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, as it were.
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And BenW (and others who share their stories): I completely understand your reluctance to do so, and completely applaud your generosity in doing so. We learn from each other.
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So I have some inkling of how this seemingly miraculous healing must have struck you. I am also a scientist and know that the conclusions you are trying to draw from it are completely and utterly unsupportable by this tissue thin 'evidence'.
Peter, I haven't offered anything as "evidence", tissue-thin or otherwise. I just gave an account of what happened. It could have been a simple coincidence that Jim's symptoms changed in such a distinct fashion on the day.
I suspect that part of the difference in our cases is that our difficult baby was our second and thus we were more experienced whereas this was your first where you are finding it all out as you along.
Peter, I described in some detail the birth injury and symptoms involved. It wasn't a matter of some silly newbie parents panicking because their baby cried a bit.
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Plus, I share some of Peter's heebie-jeebies about the osteo-chiro industry; my one and only visit to a chiropracter (for post-birth musculo-skeletal issues) was horrible, alarming, dubious and totally unhelpful; the guy was a classic shyster and had he not been recommended by midwives I trusted,
Eew. Never been to a chiropractor, or even thought about it. And I feel slightly awkward appearing to talk up osteopathy again. Damn Ross.
But given that I'm generally on the skeptical side of these discussions, it seems merely honest that I should admit to deriving benefit from a handful of good, hands-on practitioners over the years -- while making it clear that I don't buy the founding theory.
The fact that the therapy is regulated, taught in universities and funded by both public and private insurers makes me feel more comfortable in doing so. As do the properly-controlled studies noted in this thread (while evidence for its efficacy could be stronger, it's not absent). But mostly, my back feels better.
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Anyway, I think we've nailed in the programme that's the original subject of this thread. Watch it tonight, NZ residents: 9.10pm, TVNZ 7.
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Do I have to be the only one to stand up with some anecdata for chiropractors? I had a long series of failures with a physio before going to a chiropractor and getting nearly instant relief, and lasting good advice. In his first session he didn't manipulate me at all, he recommended Voltaren, which unlocked my neck over the next hours. After that his manipulations were extremely light and sparing, no cracking at all.
Frankly, I don't really care what the credentials of the physio were. He wasn't helping, and his assumption of being a demigod of healing were offensive and flew in the face of my experience.
So I don't have much time for people who try to talk down 'alternative' healing all the time. Sometimes it works, and when you are in pain, that matters. Whether it is 'scientific' or not is beside the point, from a patient's point of view. I'm sure there's an enormous number of cranks and quacks, but even a stopped analog watch is right twice a day.
That said, 99% of the time, I go to my GP, and for my worst condition, the hospital. I'm reluctant to dick around with alternative cures for my skin, but sooner or later, I will try, having been put through every drug that Western medicine has ever invented for it, and finding the result now is that I have paper thin skin, that tears easily, and a course of drugs whose known side effect is an increased chance of cancer.
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Do I have to be the only one to stand up with some anecdata for chiropractors?
No. But I usually only use them when I've actually crikked my neck out, and usually for one session, two at the most.
My attitude is: put it back in position and spare me the ongoing follow-up bullshit, please.
And the only reason I was using one in the first place sounds very similar to your experience - the light tickling I was getting from a physio really wasn't cutting it. Dammit man, get in there and crack my bones!
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Plus, I share some of Peter's heebie-jeebies about the osteo-chiro industry; my one and only visit to a chiropracter (for post-birth musculo-skeletal issues) was horrible, alarming, dubious and totally unhelpful
Fair enough, but I wouldn't dismiss the whole medical profession because I've had the unfortunate experience of coming across a GP of dubious competence and non-existent social skills.
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Fair enough, but I wouldn't dismiss the whole medical profession because I've had the unfortunate experience of coming across a GP of dubious competence and non-existent social skills.
Oh, I would. Well, no, I probably wouldn't... but then again it did take me five years to get back to the dentist after the guy who started chatting about breasts while he had his hands in my mouth. Creep-o-rama.
P'raps what's interesting (struggling to get back on topic) is that in many cases a one-off encounter is enough to tip people one way or another, and in many cases a one-off is all you get? Also: don't pick a practictioner out of the phonebook.
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I tend to think that with healing of a physio nature, the individual matters at least as much as the art. Some people are clumsy no matter how well trained. Some have good training but little experience, where others have poor training but a lot of experience, and that can count for a lot. I got the impression with my failing physio that a lot of his problem was his youth, and the cocksure arrogance that often comes with it, where the chiropractor was a kindly old gentleman whose hands had learned an extremely subtle art very well. He seemed very well informed about physiotherapy and was not dismissive of it - he just didn't have a piece of paper that he could use to claim the title of physio, and he did have a piece of paper saying chiropractor.
Sometimes the good old GP does a better job than all of these manipulators and crackers. A woman I knew had a muscular pain that none of them could deal with. Her GP fixed it with a muscle relaxant injection. It's pretty hard to beat the effect of powerful drugs with any amount of healing hands or postural therapy, or freakish exercises.
Then again, I once had a locked jaw problem, and a physio managed to fix it, despite openly admitting to having no direct experience with such a problem before - she just applied light traction repeatedly. My dentist said he could have fixed the problem with a jab but frankly, I preferred the physio to having a needle stuck in my face.
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Damn Ross
Gorn. Already there mate! And it's hot too.
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And the only reason I was using one in the first place sounds very similar to your experience - the light tickling I was getting from a physio really wasn't cutting it. Dammit man, get in there and crack my bones!
Fiona reminded me that before the osteo straightened her up so she could give birth, she'd done the proper thing and gone to a physio, who was worse than useless.
But at last we have some positive anecdata for physiotherapists:
Then again, I once had a locked jaw problem, and a physio managed to fix it, despite openly admitting to having no direct experience with such a problem before - she just applied light traction repeatedly. My dentist said he could have fixed the problem with a jab but frankly, I preferred the physio to having a needle stuck in my face.
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At last, the marketing campaign can begin:
Physiotherapy: better than having a needle stuck in your face
That really sells it!
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but then again it did take me five years to get back to the dentist after the guy who started chatting about breasts while he had his hands in my mouth.
Ew.
Though probably better than the other way around.
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But at last we have some positive anecdata for physiotherapists:
Oh, I've got a ton of anecdata for physiotherapists. Unfortunately, the best one moved to a richer neighborhood, or perhaps one which had more sore backs that he hadn't already cured.
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Though probably better than the other way around.
Trying to think which way round is worst. Chatting about mouths with his hands on your breasts? Or chatting about hands with his mouth on your breasts.
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but then again it did take me five years to get back to the dentist after the guy who started chatting about breasts while he had his hands in my mouth. Creep-o-rama.
I used to suspect my dentist was on a retainer from ASH, but that was faintly irritating rather than creepy. It's rather hard to tell someone to piss off when they've got a high speed drill in your mouth, and a working knowledge of where all those tasty nerve endings are.
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I got the impression with my failing physio that a lot of his problem was his youth, and the cocksure arrogance that often comes with it, where the chiropractor was a kindly old gentleman whose hands had learned an extremely subtle art very well.
I was a little bit troubled by Peter's railing against "they" and "them" and how "they" had to be stopped to prevent the onset of a new Dark Ages or something. It's evident that your kindly old bloke isn't the same thing as, say, a doctor injecting stem cells in Mexico.
I'm even prepared to believe he'd have at least a good a chance of providing relief as Peter's random bout of miracle garden-digging.
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I don't think people necessarily approach interventions in a purely rational way. As a parent I have tried a variety for my children, but nothing painful and nothing I would not try myself. As well the therapists have always been recommended by others as being both effective and personable.
My son's cranial osteopathy when he was little -which I observed as a very gently and peaceful massage - certainly appeared to calm his tantrums significantly. Similarly, gentle osteopathy seemed to end his headaches from a neck injury from falling off a sofa, when a physio hadn't. Intensive chemo cured my daughter's leukaemia, but Chinese herbal medicine seemed to boost her immune system from the constant infections she caught for a long time after the chemo finished. Similarly things like bach flowers and homeopathy may help some, and aren't expensive.
What I object to is strong commercial marketing to vulnerable parents as essential for their child's 'cure' - for interventions that are expensive, invasive and painful (as well as not supported by evidence) - and something the parents wouldn't voluntarily do to themselves.
Watching a small child undergo poisonous chemotherapy is very tough on parents (worse of course for the kids), but at least you have access to academic justification for the use of that particular protocol.
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Whether it is 'scientific' or not is beside the point, from a patient's point of view. I'm sure there's an enormous number of cranks and quacks, but even a stopped analog watch is right twice a day.
The viewpoint it *does* matter from, though, is this: scientifically-tested and proven treatments are ones that work for most people most of the time, better than a placebo. You can get anecdata all you like, but if these treatments can't be shown to work better than placebo for a randomly-selected group, then it's no better than chance. Twice a day isn't good enough, especially not for a government-funded health system.
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Trying to think which way round is worst. Chatting about mouths with his hands on your breasts? Or chatting about hands with his mouth on your breasts.
Ooh the triple play! Points to you sir.
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Trying to think which way round is worst.
Joking aside, the somatic effect was strangely indistinguishable; it was all simultaneously the worst, if that makes sense. He wasn't necessarily going out of his way to be deliberately pervy, as far as I could tell -- just cluelessly creepy in an old-school sort of way.
(The discussion above is kind of replicating the effect, frankly.)
Hilary, you've been through the wars. Nobody could fault you for trying anything and everything.
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I love the faith people have that if something is 'government regulated and licensed' then it must therefore be okay. I have pointed out how governments with public health services see benefits in coralling the alternative 'medicine' crowd into the big tent.
Is the government running large scale, double blind, case controlled trials of these 'techniques'? is it taxing these practicioners to pay for them like medicine gets effectively taxed to pay for the HRC? I wonder why not?
The NIH in the US have burned through USD1 billion in assessing alternative medicine really hard to try and extract useful, working, safe therapies from it. They have found nothing, nada, not a bean. Not even for backs.
1Billion dollars and where is the result? Yes, sure Russell you can cherry pick individual studies, but look overall at the totality of the data like the Cochrane Reviews do and that apparent positivity evaporates. It boils away in the stats as the random noise that it is.
So it makes you feel good, that's nice. I hope lining the pockets of these people eases the pain when the neck manipulation goes horribly wrong or one too many spinal manipulations ends up trapping a nerve instead of freeing up the energy flows.
Would you be happy handing over control of a pharmaceutical production factory to an Alchemist? How about to someone who rejects atomic theory and believes in the elements of Earth, Water, Wind and Fire? No? then why put your body in the hands of a Vitalist?
What is quite astonishing is that they have survived so long. They have done so because it is not about health or medicine or science, it is a faith position. Homeopathy is a cult, Chiropractic is teetering on the edge of becoming one.
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After a comment about university degrees I just did a google. It seems you can do degrees in Osteo in NZ. At just one institution: Unitec.
Two Medical Schools, neither of them offer Osteopathy. Anyone wonder why that might be?
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(The discussion above is kind of replicating the effect, frankly.)
Er sorry. I almost didn't post, but then thought it was probably OK, but must have missed the target.
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