Hard News: Modern Endeavour
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Yeah, we got 12 yesterday. I quite like her version of Gimme Shelter too. And her tears for fears cover is very listenable. A word I've never used to describe the actual Tears for Fears.
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at least two years coding 12 hours a day for Japanese electronics companies
Which explains the quality of software in a lot of Japanese designed electronics equipment.
Does Motorola use them as well - the UI on the RAZR would suggest they do?
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merc,
Bono: Patti is one of the greatest singing Mothers of the world. (or some such stupid rent a Bono comment.)
Patti: F*uck off Bono. -
Merc: what did Patti put where the * is?
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Sorry to be a little bit cynical here, but is this only going to be the "Good News from the Sweatshop" tour? Or are we in for some more critical reportage of "Oriental Despotisms" meeting Western (and Japanese and Singaporean) Capital?
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merc,
*Not irony. Tough crowd.
I accidently played Horses to the youngishlings in the car once...there was this holy silence.
Y 1. Jesus.
Y 2. That's a suicide song. -
Sorry to be a little bit cynical here, but is this only going to be the "Good News from the Sweatshop" tour?
Whilst there is that and there are some terrible factories (I'm talking Indonesia here, but the sweatshop finger gets pointed this way as often as not), from my experience, which is not insubstantial...having visited and crawled around dozens of factories large and small over the past few years...the sweatshop angle is rather overstated. The labour laws in this part of the world are as tough as most found in western countries, and probably tougher than the US..and they are rigorously enforced as a friend of mine who is trying to lay off three staff is finding...one who's been there five years is entitled to a years salary.
I've been into several large apparel factories in the export zone aground Jabotek and the conditions are as good as anything in Auckland, and they pay far above minimum wage...that wage often being the raison complaint in the West...they only earn $3 a day etc...ignoring the obvious that $3 per day provides a reasonable standard of living, at a usually enforced minimum wage which buys more than the minimum in many western nations.
I've seen a couple of shocking places too, one in Jogja where workers were breathing in all sorts of fumes...it was closed down by labour inspectors, the biggest issue being whether these inspectors can be bought.
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Russell, I strongly recommend Google Apps for Domains. Haven't had a problem with it yet on torkington.com (touches wood, prays to Allah, and offers a small sacrifice to Mountain View)
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Sorry to be a little bit cynical here, but is this only going to be the "Good News from the Sweatshop" tour? Or are we in for some more critical reportage of "Oriental Despotisms" meeting Western (and Japanese and Singaporean) Capital?
I thought the implication from the phrase "sausage factory" was pretty clear that not all the foreign investment here is equal in nature. The American company we visted yesterday was very much commoditised IT outsourcing, and the Japanese training venture wasn't exactly inspiring either. I think the fact that the kids working for Augen get to make design decisions and communicate directly with New Zealand clients is pretty cool.
The opportunity to get a programmming/IT job and training isn't to be sniffed at for young people here. And Vietnam, unlike New Zealand, is actually turning out increasing numbers of computing graduates.
There's also the reality of not embarrassing or making things difficult for the people I'm with and, as Graham says in his post, the fact that the Vietnamese people are generally delightful. I had to wriggle out of having a translator (ie: government minder) before I left NZ - that was quite a relief.
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and probably tougher than the US.
Those creepy extra-territorial US zones seem to be the worst places by far. No proper labour laws, no press freedom, no civil society. Being an outpost of the Land of the Free doesn't offer much freedom, it seems.
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Patti Smith DOES rock. I saw her a few years back w/Bob Dylan at the (yikes!) North Shore Events Centre of all places. No matter.She tore the roof off the place. Likewise, the Hendrix version of Like A Rolling Stone is monumental. Another version of it live at Winterland can be heard on http://concerts.wolfgangsvault.com/
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Simon: I would like to see you live on $3 a day... I am sorry but if your moral community does not extend to income it is difficult to see you than other than a racist and/or an advocate of the ongoing impoverishment of the non-West (I realise these are nasty terms, and I don't use them lightly).
Investment in the non-West today is almost always a redistributionary strategy away from the Western and Japanese poor to the Western and Japanese rich. No amount of sophistry along the lines of providing development through investment to the non-West should cloud this. The rich are not outsourcing because they care about poor non-Westerners - they do this to enrich themselves at the expense of poor people in the West and elsewhere.
By all means Western governments and firms should be providing capital to the industrialisation of the non-West (if for no other reason than to redress the ending of the proto-industrialisation in parts of the non-West during the colonial era) - but this should not be used as smokeshield to redistribute wealth to the rich within the West through the destruction of Western industry and undermining the taxation process.
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$3 an hour is low by Western standards, but when you factor in a PPE exchange rate, referenced to that nation's average GDP per capita (in this case Vietnam) then $3 isn't a bad sum.
And who has tried to claim that the business community has been alturistic in this out sourcing? You find me a citation Marcus perhaps, then you can justify your comments re@Simon. Oh and i find the idea of a partially globalised market rather naive. Which parts of globalistation do you wish to keep? The low consumer good pricing, fuel costs (yes, lol), integrated markets? Which? Do you want to go back to some idealised ideal of autarky? Please.
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The labour laws in this part of the world are as tough as most found in western countries, and probably tougher than the US..
That certainly looks very nice - but it seems a hell of a stretch that these laws can be effectively enforced in a huge country with no real welfare base.
Seriously, while the Suharto/Golkar kleptocracy may have shrivelled into the People's Conscience Party (IMHE Indonesians do have a nice sense of irony), it's hard to accept that the Indonesian military - and their proxies - have entirely abandoned their old habits of intimidating factory workers.
I'm genuinely interested to know whether there's been a real change, but not so long ago it would have been a solid bet that the laid-off employee entitled to a year's salary would have needed a high-placed contact in the police or miltary in order to enforce their claim. Then there'd be the matter of how much would be creamed off for services rendered.
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Capitalism as we know it is really only a 100-odd years old. And it's only in the last 25 years that it's really taken off* via 'globalisation' and 'free' markets. But the reality is that it's just a glorified pyramid marketing scheme that can't sustain itself.
Goods are produced in low wage economies to sell at higher prices in higher wage economies. As those low wage economies become more prosperous (thru foreign investment in manufacturing) they move out of the low wage bracket. So the international manufactures seek new low wage economies to produce their goods in, and the cycle continues.
I can't imagine what the world will be like in 100 years time, but I doubt we will have capitalism as we know it today. We probably will be controlled by corporations/zillionaires; albeit through their control of 'nations'. (The America's Cup is a good example of how people's patriotism can be fooled by corporate interests!)
* I'm not judging its merits, good or bad -
Ben: My comments to Simon apply to you - if you think $3 a day is a fair wage you are more or less racist... These workers are simply not getting the share of profits that their eqivalents in the West would be getting.
In regards to outsourcing being argued as an international development paradigm, there is a wealth of material - even Oxfam a few years ago was talking about it.
And quite frankly your final comment on globalisation is simply naive, deterministic, There-Is-No-Alternative ideology that runs deep in NZ political discourse. Globalisation is and has always been shaped by political action. The global economy went through at least three major configurations during the twentieth century as polities chose the terms on which they engaged with others. I am not arguing for autarky - I am all for capital investment in the non-West - but this process should not used to redistribute wealth to the rich in the West from the middle-class and the poor.
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Simon: I would like to see you live on $3 a day
If I lived in the Indonesian Community I quite easily could...I'm not sure what you are suggesting....that everybody here working in a factory should be paid the US equivalent, or the NZ equivalent? That to satisfy your western guilt, imagined or otherwise, the whole economy here should be thrown into complete turmoil, because that's the obvious end result. The arrogance that implies, I throw back at you, is patronizing and I suggest the Indonesians I know would regard that as somewhat racist. Certainly its a theme heard over and over again here, the rejection of the implied racial superiority that comes out of, especially, Australia
That certainly looks very nice - but it seems a hell of a stretch that these laws can be effectively enforced in a huge country with no real welfare base.
I'd argue that this country has a welfare base, however it tends to be community based rather than institutionally based. And the various benefits introduced by the government in recent years are slowly adding to this. The beefing up of the labour inspectorate, and the slow, determined removal of the military from large scale commercial activity (and the assembly), is having an effect. In real terms they don't have the same power they did, thats evident on a day to day basis living here. The removal of the police from Army control has made a huge difference.
The thing is Joe, these laws are being fairly effectively enforced, not everywhere but more and more...witness Sony pulling out of Indonesia a couple of years back, moving to Eastern Europe, because the bad old days are gone...they said as much. Things have moved on from the the pre 98, as you put it, Suharto/Golkar kleptocracy.
The company that is laying off workers, the example I gave you being the most extreme, is a very large US owned corporation manufacturing in Jakarta and Bali. Many of the he staff they've laid off in the past six months, who have all had to have been paid redundancy, are floor workers, with, I can assure you, little likelihood of ties to either the Police or the Army. The three I mentioned, in Bali, are very junior mgmt, and they too are unlikely to have any links, nor will they have to pay a percentage to anyone.
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So the international manufactures seek new low wage economies to produce their goods in
and as much to the point, rake their as much of their profits from grossly overcharging the first world as they may do from exploiting the third.
Why does the same car, manufactured in the same factory in Japan cost 300% more in Sydney or Auckland as it does in Surabaya. Or a cellphone I can buy here for $200 cost $900 in NZ?.
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Thank you Simon, most informative, much appreciated.
From my limited experience of occasional visits over the past 30 years, the average Indonesian - including schoolchildren - is vastly better informed about Australia than the average Australian is about their closest neighbour.
Appreciate your point about a community-based welfare structure - while things have no doubt moved on, I'd suggest that much of what might appear to Western eyes as low-level corruption is often simply people looking out for one another. It's a part of the world that it's hard to remain unaffected by once you've experienced the warmth and generosity of the people. They deserved better than to be saddled with the often parasitic police force that once passed for a military.Thanks again for a most encouraging post.
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I was going to say this earlier but bit my tongue: Marcus I would be interested in learning what you are paid in Sydney. If it's more than you would be getting for a similar job in Auckland then surely Aucklanders are being taken advantage of? And is the situation worse in Dunedin?
ie your argument is endless.
Simon makes a good point about the cost of a cell phone in Indonesia vis a vis NZ. How much does a can of Coca Cola cost in various countries? Presumably much cheaper in Soweto than South Auckland. But then that depends on your definition of 'cheap'. As a % of the weekly wage it's probably a lot more expensive in Soweto, which is why tourists going to foreign lands love a bargain. Should we pay the kiwi $$ eqivalent when travelling to Soweto? And would the same argument hold true when visiting London? -
I turned on the TV last night to see our export to Vietnam: education. From what I could make out "Educated in New Zealand" is pitched as a premium brand.
FWIW, Vietnam has a literacy rate of 90% and a significant value is placed on education. OTOH, I gathered from the coversation I had yesterday that exam cheating is rife at tertiary level.
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Should we pay the kiwi $$ equivalent for a can of coke when travelling to Soweto? And would the same argument hold true when visiting London?
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Simon: Sure but I also imagine that most Indonesians would also prefer to earn the $350-$400 a week they would earn if they were paid the going rate in a South Auckland factory instead of the $20 a week they apparently currently earn...
If the workers in these factories were paid Western levels the "turmoil" that would lead to would be 1) less vulnerable Western workers losing their jobs, and 2) an increased proportion of profits staying in-country rather than being repatriated to the West.
Again, I believe it is morally imperative to have Western investment in Indonesia or elsewhere, but this should not be exploitative of the Western and non-Western poor.
Re differential pricing - I that the issue is less that firms price goods differently in different markets, but that rather the cost savings of outsourcing by firms have disproportionately accrued to firms and that Western consumers have been gouged.
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Yes - International Observer, NZers who stay in NZ are being taken advantage through the vulnerabilities of the NZ economy - i.e. lack of savings, lack of international markets. Apart from brief periods in the 1800s and post WW2, NZ has usually been a poor cousin in its relations with the rest of the West.
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But the reality is that [capitalism]'s just a glorified pyramid marketing scheme that can't sustain itself.
Bingo.
And well before it runs out of low-wage countries to exploit, there is the little problem of finite resources. On top of that, overcomplexity introduces the risk of sudden and massive systemic failure.
A key prerequisite of the current flavour of capitalism is never-ending economic growth over the medium-to-long term. When resource depletion curtails this relentless growth drive, the interest-bearing-debt-based financial pyramid scheme will collapse. As the flow of available resources ebbs, the economy must shrink. You can't fight the laws of thermodynamics (even if neoclassical economists believe substitution can keep the growth game going forever).
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