Hard News: More Secrets and Lies
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Idiot Savant, in reply to
BTW, anyone who can find the assessments of the three prisoners apparently taken from Band e Timur (the Americans officially spell it "Band Taimore") in the Wikileaks files gets a chocolate fish from me.
Gone through all Afghans in the Guardian release; no-one stands out.
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Thanks for the post.
On the matter of war generally, “the first casualty of war is the truth” and then after that it is women, children and the elderly in considerable number.
With the matter of NZSAS handing over prisoners for “torture” by "allies" as reported, I have to say that “there is no right way to do something wrong”.
It is troubling that both the Nats and Labs lack a moral compass, though not unexpected.
Politicians are mostly incapable of being honest; and this incapacity has nothing to do with what the question was or what is an honest or truthful answer.
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3410,
No one should pretend that the SAS and its political masters weren't in a terribly difficult position here: the lawlessness of both the Americans and, later, the Afghan security forces presented a problem that was in some ways intractable. But the British found a way: they instructed their forces not to hand over any prisoners. Our leaders sought other means to make the problem go away.
Which were what… perhaps I just have to buy and read the article.
This article sums it up pretty well:
"If [former Defence chief] Jerry Mateparae's advice is that they are not involved in the arrest, they're not involved in the arrest," Mr Key said last year. He could not have been more emphatic in his denial that our SAS troops have taken any prisoners during their deployment in Afghanistan.
But the Metro investigation, by journalist Jon Stephenson, has uncovered evidence that the unit has not only taken prisoners but transferred them to Afghan authorities known for torture and mistreatment.
The method? Taking a representative of Afghan authorities along on raids who would do all the processing of prisoners, thus neatly leaving our boys out of the loop of needing to comply with Geneva Conventions.
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Islander, in reply to
O dear goodness! That is so so sick-
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Just following the path forged by Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush and their merry band of neolib accomplices. Such as evil attorney John Yoo who decided that the Geneva Conventions meant whatever the supreme being, I mean commander, decided they did. And yet not one of them in prison.
Nice to see our 'leaders' showing the same moral fibre, isn't it.
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All of which is why people of my generation are totally cynical and will vote randomly because we have come to hate ALL politicians-
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The Prime Minister has, inevitably, dismissed any prospect of an inquiry. We should not let him off so easily.
Russell, I don’t doubt this but can’t see an online statement. Was it in a particular interview or post Cabinet brief? I’m curious to know what reasons he gave? If he has evidence countering the claims, surely he’d produce it. However, if he doesn’t, wouldn’t he be obliged to ask for a specific briefing if not agree to an inquiry.
ETA: Should've read the thread more thoroughly, 3410's comment particularly.
I take it then, it was the comments in the McRoberts item. That's not nearly sufficient IMO. It's possible the journalist's wrong and/or has been misled, but it's simply too important to not entirely resolve it to a reasonable standard. Mateparae's comment doesn't meet that standard in my mind.
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Islander, in reply to
(including sort of continuing our 'sheeplike' (fuck you too mate) Labour voting- better the devil etc.)
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The New Zealand involvement in the American War on Terror is inexcusable.
The events of 11/9/2001 being the casus belli event thou no proof has ever been shown that Afghanistan or its people had any involvement in the planning or execution of the events of 11/9/2001.
In fact the Taliban agreed to hand over Osama Bin Laden if America could show proof of his involvement in the attacks of 11/9/2001.(1)Bush ignored this offer and ordered the invasion instead.Even today the FBI does not list OBL in its TOP TEN of wanted fugitives for the events of 11/9/2001 and when ask the FBI states that "they don't have evidence linking OBL to the events of 911" (2)
OBL denied any roll in the events of 11/9/2001 (3) but most people except the American version none the less.Time and space limit my ability to address this issue in full .
Please read the articles I've linked to for your information.
If the war on terror was started under false pretences what is the truth and who benefits from it ?(1)http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5
(2)http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13664.htm
(3)http://edition.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/index.html -
3410,
That is so so sick-
Yep, but that's the way of the world these days. New Zealand sold its soul to the US (and everything else to Australia) and the threadbare plausible deniability at every level of this story, from Clark to Key, from Goff to Mapp, from Ferguson to Mateparae, and so on, will go without serious challenge just like everything else.
Must, however, give props to some of the SAS on the ground who complained about this bullshit.
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And while we're on the subject of lies, come on down,
TVNZ spokeswoman Megan Richards. -
Alex Coleman, in reply to
and the threadbare plausible deniability at every level of this story, from Clark to Key, from Goff to Mapp, from Ferguson to Mateparae, and so on, will go without serious challenge just like everything else.
I'm not sure they pulled the plausibility off. The Red Cross lines look like demonstrable lies.
Full respect to Jon Stephenson and Simon Wilson. Thank you both. Also to the SAS members who acted as sources.
Hopefully some of the editors and Journo's in the dailys can keep the story going. This is the sort of story people go into journalism for, innit?
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Steve Withers, in reply to
Craig: NZ's "moral high horse riding" was based on working through the UN using legal means to deal with the problems. What NZ (Labour, actually....as National were happy to ignore the UN Charter). asserted was the primacy of the UN in resolving situations like Iraq. As we now know, the United States - at best - was grossly, lethally incompetent and at worst was cynically murderous in its pretext for invading Iraq. NZ would have had no problems joining that crew had there been an obvious, verifiable danger to the world. There wasn't. It was the right thing to do. The UN supported the invasion of Afghanistan....and still does. No high horse required (or deployed).
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Steve:
Thanks for the party political broadcast on behalf of the Labour Party. Now, I'd like to know whether we've had a string of Ministers over the last decade TELLING BALD FACED LIES TO THE PUBLIC AND PARLIAMENT about possible complicity on the part of New Zealand troops handing foreign nationals to torturers in contravention of international law.
And, yes, I think we've all got a serious credibility problem if New Zealand was practically enabling the very war crimes enlightened opinion at home condemned.
Seriously, not trying to make a partisan score here because there are a lot of people who have a lot of questions to answer. Turthfully. Or face real consequences.
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Media7 tonight, TVNZ 7, 9.05pm, with Jon Stephenson and Simon Wilson.
Best show we've done.
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Steve Parks, in reply to
Best show we’ve done.
Man, between this, Wallace’s pending announcement about Back Benches, and Doctor Who, this week's been all about…
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The Media7 show is available for viewing online.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
And while we're on the subject of lies, come on down,
TVNZ spokeswoman Megan Richards. -
Jan Farr, in reply to
Islander, in reply to Islander, 2 days ago
Email
(including sort of continuing our 'sheeplike' (fuck you too mate) Labour voting- better the devil etc.)
Well that's fine, Islander, as long as you don't mind the people who do have an opinion choosing for you. Our politicians might be seriously flawed, but in my humble opinion some of them are at least trying to commit to more socially responsible principles than others. And they're not all responsible for handing over prisoners to the Americans.
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Russell, that's a bloody great show you've got going there!
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Russell, that's a bloody great show you've got going there!
Thank you!
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3410,
No Right Turn: The SAS takes prisoners after all.
Mapp comes clean.
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Where in central Wellington still has this month's Metro in stock? Tried a couple of places today and they'd already sold out.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Mapp comes clean.
Yes, they're acknowledging the key point of the story -- and still choosing to smear Stephenson? How very odd.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
I also noticed in NRT's blog that the leftist NDP has displaced the centrist Liberals as Canada's biggest Opposition party. Even factoring in the discrepancy of the vote share, it's still a big-time drubbing for the Libs. Could the same happen here?
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