Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Not good enough, Eden Park

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  • Peter Darlington, in reply to Danielle,

    The key difference being that no one is abusively yelling "look at that guy, what a fucking heterosexual!" about them at the rugby.

    No, but it would be a great chant if they did. "You play like a heterosexual you medium sized, Corolla driving, Dire Straits loving accountant, you!"

    Witty, ironic chanting never seemed to take hold with your NZ rugby crowds though, sadly.

    Nelson • Since Nov 2006 • 948 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Scott Chris,

    The public events I attend have a prevailing culture compatible with my levels of passive tolerance.

    But you're okay with a rugby player not being able to watch a rugby game without being abused. Okay.

    Lot of men out there feel discriminated against, probably without much justification from my perspective - but perception is reality at an individual level.

    You don't think maybe there's a difference in the actual realities?

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4650 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens, in reply to BenWilson,

    Josh Kronfeld and Graham Mourie agree homophobic utterances aren’t OK.

    The problem is this argument has quickly become a censorship one, rather than one about the appalling attitude of Eden Park management to a genuine complaint.

    No one (well, maybe except the Eden Park spokesperson) is saying it is OK to bellow homophobic slurs, even if they are as common and widespread in current usage as the sudden affection for abusing the word “literally”. However, we live in a free country and until that changes then I can’t see how anyone can do – or should do – much about a couple of dudes yelling bad taste and offensive insults at the teams on the field (for that is the charge, no one is is saying they were using expletives) in a crowd. The only defense for bad taste barracking is if it is funny, IMHO (like the Aussie commentator last night who observed of the Root/Warner incident that Warner “couldn’t even middle that”). Since that is the case, I am not sure why people are getting their knickers in such a twist about what to do about the two guys in question. Sometime, you just gotta put up with it.

    Sevilla, Espana • Since Nov 2006 • 2210 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    any bullying behaviour will result in ejection

    Heck if the Aussies can do it..

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19667 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Tom Semmens,

    Sometime, you just gotta put up with it

    Spoken like a straight white educated dude, sir.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19667 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Peter Darlington,

    No, but it would be a great chant if they did

    +1

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19667 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Tom Semmens,

    Since that is the case, I am not sure why people are getting their knickers in such a twist about what to do about the two guys in question. Sometime, you just gotta put up with it.

    I think this is worth repeating, Tom, but football clubs in the UK (you know, those havens of amok political correctness) are deciding nobody - not players, not spectators, not the folks whose taxes and rates are subsidising their corporate welfare - just has to suck it up and tolerate racist or homophobic sledging.

    Apart from the question of sheer common decency, the Eden Park Trust need to remember they're running a business and GLBTI and women's money is legal tender too.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Greg Dawson, in reply to Tom Semmens,

    bad taste and offensive insults at the teams on the field (for that is the charge, no one is is saying they were using expletives)

    This is an interesting distinction. What are expletives if not bad taste and offensive words?

    ETA: except for improved versions of "very" that is

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 294 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Tom Semmens,

    then I can’t see how anyone can do – or should do – much about a couple of dudes yelling bad taste and offensive insults at the teams on the field

    The mistake you are making is assuming Eden Park is a public space, it is not. The management of Eden Park can specify the behaviours that are acceptable in the stadium.

    Second mistake is assuming free speech allows you to say anything you like, even in a public space. Hate speech (eg homophobic slurs) are restricted already.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4450 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    The management of Eden Park can specify the behaviours that are acceptable in the stadium.

    Of course they do. I imagine if I showed up with my dick hanging out of my trousers, a fully-loaded bong in one hand and a flagon of paint-stripper home-brew in the other, I'd be *cough* offered a ride home with the nice Police officers. And rightly so. :)

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Greg Dawson,

    bad taste and offensive insults at the teams on the field (for that is the charge, no one is is saying they were using expletives)

    This is an interesting distinction. What are expletives if not bad taste and offensive words?

    Expletives in general aren't a problem, but I make a point of tempering my language when there are kids nearby, which is often the case. It's really quite possible to urgently advise the referee of his shortcomings without literally telling him he's a fucking wanker.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22743 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Tom Semmens,

    So a "couple of dudes" have a right to be obnoxious pricks and then bully a young woman when she objects to their behaviour, but that young woman somehow doesn't have a right to object to their obnoxiousness? How does that work?

    Or how's about a certain sector of society stops squealing about their rights and shouting "PC gone mad" like petulant 4 year olds and starts accepting the responsibilities that come with freedom and adulthood, like, for example, the responsibility to treat others with basic respect and common courtesy?

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens,

    Spoken like a straight white educated dude, sir.

    Well what do you propose actually doing about it? Chucking people out for loudly expressing opinions you find distasteful? Because that is a cure worse than the disease, IMHO. Everyone sitting around in silence, unless they celebrate in the manner proscribed in the terms and conditions printed on the back - enforced with the sort of over-proscriptive "security" paranoia this very site has railed against in the past. That would just turn Eden Park into another Vector Arena, a venue made dreary by the infantilising attitude that everything is forbidden, unless expressly permitted by the management.

    If you can't cope with being insulted, ever, you'd best not to go out at all, ever, just in case you over hear some school kid two steps in front of you pronounce the app they just downloaded "literally gay".

    Sevilla, Espana • Since Nov 2006 • 2210 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Tom Semmens,

    You still seem to be missing the bit where they turned around and bullied the person who objected to their offensive language.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    Of course they do. I imagine if I showed up with my dick hanging out of my trousers, a fully-loaded bong in one hand and a flagon of paint-stripper home-brew in the other, I’d be *cough* offered a ride home with the nice Police officers. And rightly so. :)

    As others have noted, earlier this year, Eden park management defended ejecting people who started Mexican waves or threw a single paper dart -- and using closed circuit cameras to spot such offenders. There's also harassing people with thermos flasks at the cricket and confiscating beach balls.

    But in this case, they give the razz to someone who has actually been subjected to bullying and harassment? What the hell is wrong with them?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22743 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Chris Waugh,

    You still seem to be missing the bit where they turned around and bullied the person who objected to their offensive language.

    And physically harassed her. No one should have to "cope" with that.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22743 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens,

    So a “couple of dudes” have a right to be obnoxious pricks and then bully a young woman when she objects to their behaviour, but that young woman somehow doesn’t have a right to object to their obnoxiousness? How does that work?

    They both have the right, and as far as I can tell they’ve both exercised it, albeit in different forums. My point is you can’t bitch about over-priced beer in flimsy plastic cups doled out one at a time then in the same breath demand MORE security for someone/thing you don’t agree with. They two sides of the same coin. In a free country If someone isn’t of a disposition to treat others with basic respect and common courtesy then you can’t make them.

    But in this case, they give the razz to someone who has actually been subjected to bullying and harassment? What the hell is wrong with them?

    THIS is the question that needs answering, not demanding they simply be even more authoritarian, except when you want to buy two mini bottles of Sav oh and with a proper glass please.

    Sevilla, Espana • Since Nov 2006 • 2210 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Russell Brown,

    But in this case, they give the razz to someone who has actually been subjected to bullying and harassment? What the hell is wrong with them?

    A question I hope Auckland Rugby and the NZRFU are asking as well, considering they're making some effort to... well, give live rugby an image make-over with slightly less alcohol-marinaded testosterone in the mix. And I'm sure we can all applaud the sight of All Blacks and Black Ferns as ambassadors for the Applaud Initiative to get the sporting equivalent of stage mothers to tone it down a bit. Well, a lot.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Tom Semmens,

    If you can't cope with being insulted, ever, you'd best not to go out at all, ever, just in case you over hear some school kid two steps in front of you pronounce the app they just downloaded "literally gay".

    Really crappy analogy there, Tom. I've got slightly higher expectations from sentient adults than children. And for the record, I've had occasion to have the OTHER talk with younglings about using "gay" as a slur. Socialization, FTW!

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Tom Semmens,

    Chucking people out for loudly expressing opinions you find distasteful?

    You seem to presenting their behaviour as if it was merely expressing a distastefull opinion and then arguing that it should be OK.

    For example I would find it distasteful if the folks behind me at the cricket were discussing what a wonderfully honest and honourable politician John Banks was.

    I that case I would have no right to expect them to be forced to STFU or be ejected.

    But these guys were shouting homophobic slurs (hate speech) and then stepped it up to bullying (verbally and physically) the woman who complained. Either of those things should override any rights to free speech.

    You are quite right to expect free speech to be protected, even to the point where some people would find the speech unpleasant or distasteful. But you are wrong to argue that this is what was occuring in this specific case.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4450 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Tom Semmens,

    If you can't cope with being insulted

    if you can't cope with the consequences your behaviour brings

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19667 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Tom Semmens,

    What Bart said. After all, it's not like it was a couple of random strangers she passed in the street. And it wasn't just an isolated comment or slip of the tongue. And you're still missing the bullying and physical harassment she was subjected to when she exercised her right to object to their behaviour - that is not freedom of speech. And no, it's not about going all Beijing style and swamping the stadium with uniformed and plainclothes police, including phalanxes of doghandlers and both civilian police and People's Armed Police - if you want heavy security, try a Beijing Guoan match at Workers' Stadium. It's simply a matter of enforcing a minimum standard of behaviour, which, as Russell, Craig and probably others have pointed out, Eden Park already does.

    And sorry, but I can't see how "over-priced beer in flimsy plastic cups" is the flip side of relaxed security/a free society.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Tom, you seem to be confusing 'freedom of speech' with freedom from consequences. I'm sure we've all had this conversation before.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19667 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens,

    But these guys were shouting homophobic slurs (hate speech)

    I suppose this is the nub of it, and where we disagree. I don’t think hate speech should be banned, one groups hate speech is unfortunately another communities commonly expressed opinions. As long they weren’t inciting the crowd to violence, they can say what they like and be judged by the crowd. I trust that people can work it out for themselves, without the need for some risk averse bureaucrat introducing yet more creeping restrictions on my freedom to say what I damn well like.

    physically harassed her.

    This is a bit of a red herring, since the existing law already deals with common assault, which brings us back to the appalling attitude of Eden Park to the physical man-handling of a patron.

    Sevilla, Espana • Since Nov 2006 • 2210 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Slurs not OK say prominent NZ sporting figures.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19667 posts Report Reply

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