Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Not yet standing upright

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  • simon g,

    My concern is less about the flag, more about the democratic process.

    The role of a referendum is always an issue to debate in a democracy. Different lands, different methods. Generally, I favour representative democracy, but with an outlet, such as citizens' initiated referenda (and a beefed-up law, requiring a response, though Parliament must retain the final say). Basic principle - the more public engagement, the better.

    This whole flag shemozzle is damaging the democratic process. A referendum is now widely seen as a PM's toy, not the result of hundreds of thousands of signatures. It's not from "us", as when people were exercised by smacking or asset sales. Result - more cynicism, and inevitable (if wrong-headed) calls to boycott, sabotage, etc.

    It reinforces the feeling of a fake democracy. Yes. you can "have your say" on social media, but ... not really. You're not on the panel. You can do the work, submit the designs, but ... it's in the trash.

    It's the kind of phoney consulting that pisses people off at work - "I value your input", lies the boss, before doing what he was planning anyway. And across the democratic world, cynicism is growing, often reflected in low turnouts and the rise of extremist parties. In NZ we're still a long way from the worst of that, and mocking is better than rioting, but ...

    TLDR: Key doesn't do civics, doesn't care, and it shows. And it matters.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1324 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

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    Today's Tremain

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2608 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Ben Chapman,

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    Interestingly, Hundertwasser intended it to be a secondary flag.

    I was privileged enough to be given one of his screen prints. It's showing it's age but I cherish this original dearly. I feel lucky :)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Katharine Moody, in reply to simon g,

    This whole flag shemozzle is damaging the democratic process.

    I'm trying to figure out whether the first referendum is an STV vote? The Wiki entry refers to a ranking of the four designs but the official government website doesn't go into any explanation of that.

    But if it is STV, then would a Hypnoflag supporter be advised to just rank that design with a number 1 and no ranking after that? Point is, if it is an STV vote, then one can only assume all 'fern' supporters will rank the ferns 1, 2 and 3 (with hypno as 4) and as one fern drops out in any one round, obviously the next fern will be allocated all the secondary votes from fern supporters next ranking, and so on until it's a fern - no matter what.

    Wellington • Since Sep 2014 • 798 posts Report Reply

  • Mikaere Curtis, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I'll vote for the hypnoflag and then vote for our current flag because none of the National caucus approved options deserve to carry New Zealand into the future.

    This.

    Key wanted his legacy to be a silver fern derivative logo, and stacked the flag panel to deliver his preferred options in a 3:1 mix. Screw that, I'm voting Hypnoflag followed by Keep The Existing One, I want a proper process not this farce.

    Tamaki Makaurau • Since Nov 2006 • 528 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell, in reply to Katharine Moody,

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2608 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Alfie,

    Obviously. Those of us who choose not to use Facebook aren't even allowed to view your post. That's one way to ensure Hypnoflag avoids widespread acceptance.

    +1

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Y'all bitching about Vote Hypnoflag being Facebook-only at this time are welcome to do something on the wider web, y'know!

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    Well give us some details here. I don't face palm!

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    Y'all bitching...

    It's only your Facebook "security settings" I mentioned Matthew. Just saying.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1386 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Alfie,

    They're as open as possible. Looks like I picked the wrong option when setting up and did a Group instead of a Page.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Paul,

    The traditional anthem need not be a dirge. Here it is played for a 36 sec duration, and it sounds fine to my ears; just as I'd sing it to myself:

    Taranaki • Since Dec 2011 • 10 posts Report Reply

  • Katharine Moody, in reply to Paul Campbell,

    So then the hypnoflag as a spoiler mechanism really has no chance of winning under STV - if I read that correctly. No doubt that's exactly why we got three ferns in the shortlist.

    Wellington • Since Sep 2014 • 798 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

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    Y’all see Hypnoflag©
    I see Psychoflag

    Key & Co have always had this thing about National Standards – this embodies their contribution…

    (I was gonna subtitle this flag Captain Coriolis's Maudlin )

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7892 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Right, let's try this.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Paul Paul,

    I've just realized: God of Nations and For Those In Peril On The Sea have the same tune, right?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    Nope, sorry, not.

    vs

    There's a vague similarity I'll grant you, but definitely not the same or even nearly the same.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 580 posts Report Reply

  • Ianmac, in reply to Paul Paul,

    Didn't realise that the anthem could sound so perky Paul! A new spring in my step. Hip ray!

    Bleneim • Since Aug 2008 • 135 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Lucy Telfar Barnard,

    You can certainly sing either set of lyrics to either tune.

    Possibly one of those unconscious intermusicalities, like Fight Test and Father and Son or Hope and Suzanne.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood,

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    STV certainly makes Hypnoflags path to "victory" much harder, as it is effectively a two alternative race for anyone that fills out the complete form, but (at the moment) I still see it as a better option than spoiled ballot as there is no mechanism for recognising not wanting any of the alternatives. So I am expect non and spoiled votes to be ignored in discussion of the results.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen R, in reply to Emma Hart,

    I've always kind of hated our anthem. Then one day I was curious about how and when the decision was made to add the Maori verse, and I ran across the documentary David Farrier made about it, and I kind of changed my mind.

    I rather like the way that, in contrast with some other countries, it doesn't celebrate kicking the shit out of someone else. "Rule Brittania","rockets' red glare" vs "
    Guard Pacific's triple star ... From the shafts of strife and war," and "Listen to us gently, With the infinite love, May the goodness bear fruit;"

    (Which one is the triple star again?)
    (translation via wikipedia)

    Wellington • Since Jul 2009 • 259 posts Report Reply

  • Katharine Moody, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    Better but I think the fact that this is an STV vote is your bigger problem. In other words, looks like Key Inc. has spoiled your spoiler.

    Wellington • Since Sep 2014 • 798 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Telfar Barnard,

    The tune was originally a drinking song, IIRC.
    I picture people sitting on trestle tables in a pub, singing the tune rowdily and waving their beer mugs sloshily in time. Much more fun!

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 580 posts Report Reply

  • Katharine Moody, in reply to David Hood,

    Yeah, it's been well and truly rigged - and can be the only reason we got variations of one choice. All very cleverly planned by a government who doesn't believe in choice.

    Wellington • Since Sep 2014 • 798 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Katharine Moody,

    and so on until it's a fern - no matter what.

    This has become an awful, awful, awful process.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

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