Hard News: Out of the Groove
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I agree with the helen clark admiration society vibe, but to credit labour completely with the turn around in radio play of kiwi music is to take away from the many other players who actually played a bigger part in it all.
That would be
- a few renegade radio people and their exceptional energy and effort - ie channel z who broke artists and made it easier for other stations to pick up on their programing innovation. They also created for a time a community vibe in the three main centres which swelled interest in locals sounds and they made their presence felt at concerts and funded school gigs by local acts. This of course fell to pieces when they centralised their operation out of Auckland only, but it was great while it lasted and was a very major factor in the ground swell support for sounds local. I've got a lot of admiration for people like melanie wise who knew what they were playing, were at the gigs and really did love the music they played.- key bands who just would not give up. Shihad, Goodshirt, etc who grew such a large and vocal fan base that it was frankly embarrassing for radio to not be aware of these acts.
- independent record labels, and their support crew who did the hard yards to promote these bands without assistance.
- Music fans who made themselves known.
all of these factors had practically nothing to do with government funding therefore the government is wrong to take credit for it, but they are right to take pride in it with the rest of us, and you are right, this government is the only one to acknowledge the importance of ART to our cultural well being, and I think Helen Clark is the major factor in that, but I don't share as much faith in the administrators of the plan. Frankly I think its been hijacked and derailed.
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Heh - that would be 'Gerrards Final'. Your son has immaculate taste by the way.
I laughed like a drain when Stevie missed that penalty for England against Portugal. If they'd lined up the Hammers squad along the halfway, he'd have got it no problem!
Why so many Hammers fans here? - My view from 'oop north' is that Hammers fans are usually either football purists, incurable romantics, east London wide boys, or blessed with a stoic nature able to withstand enormous disappointment for the brief taste
All true. We like football to be crazy beautiful. And we like our players to be stylish heroes, or barking mad. Just not pedestrian.
Great result against Bolton - they could do it.
No thanks to your lot against Fulham today. We needed them to lose. What an abject performance.
Still, can't complain! Tevez is pretty much the form player in the Premiership right now.
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- key bands who just would not give up. Shihad, Goodshirt, etc who grew such a large and vocal fan base that it was frankly embarrassing for radio to not be aware of these acts.
I'm not sure how that was new.....we sold close of 5000 copies of See Me Go in a week on release in 81; DD Smash were pulling huge crowds and selling more records in NZ than Shihad have ever done; Citizen Band sold out the Auckland Town Hall in 1981 etc etc...Mainstreet was pretty full (1500 people..how many bands could do that now) with local bands every night in the early eighties...all without commercial radio of any sort. Radio simply ignored it. It was the stick around the turn of the decade that forced the seachange. I remember the massive fuss before the quota....radio saying repeatedly there was nothing to play.
I know Z made a (small but noticeable I think) difference, although to be honest, their ratings were not good in Auckland, where I would suggest Mai made far more of an impact and are due some credit. But to get to that middle mass...the More FMs and the like who would never have caved in (and will stop playing NZ music if the stick is removed), a threat was necessary...and Clark provided that. It was crucial.
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we sold close of 5000 copies of See Me Go in a week on release in 81
heh heh ... one of my favourite songs in 7th form!
(In a previous life, I'm not that old, I'm young and hot)
Mainstreet was pretty full (1500 people..how many bands could do that now) with local bands every night in the early eighties
Well, not every night but you're point is generally correct and well made. I have to chuckle when I see 'big' 'underground' bands coming to Auckland to play the Kings Arms (300 pax?). cue wistfull memories of Jello Biafra singing 'Holiday In Cambodia' at Mainstreet
As for Helen Clark, well she probablly spoke too long and this would've added insult to Finn's injury. Hence his vent. Real Groove must be real happy with the publicity they got from regurgitating comments Finn made last year.
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Russell: THANKYOU FOR THE KARAJOZ!! Caffeine-soaked weekend.
How you got it through the letterbox remains a mystery. -
As for Helen Clark, well she probablly spoke too long and this would've added insult to Finn's injury
Um, yes. I know getting a politician to forgo an opportunity to ego-wank before a congenial audience is a big ask, but really...
If Chirs Finlayson ends up becoming the next Arts Minister, here's his form speech: "Good evening. Love you all, love your work, have a drink on me. Good night." :) And if all else fails, let's hope there's some contrary cuss up the back of the hall to say the Emperor not only has no clothes, but he's fat and has a microscopically tiny Weiner.
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Russell: THANKYOU FOR THE KARAJOZ!! Caffeine-soaked weekend.
How you got it through the letterbox remains a mystery.If I told you I'd have to kill you, and that would be unfortunate ...
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If Chirs Finlayson ends up becoming the next Arts Minister, here's his form speech: "Good evening. Love you all, love your work, have a drink on me. Good night." :) And if all else fails, let's hope there's some contrary cuss up the back of the hall to say the Emperor not only has no clothes, but he's fat and has a microscopically tiny Weiner.
Actually, Finlayson did himself a hell of a lot of good on Frontseat recently by (a) appearing to know what he was talking about, and (b) appearing to care.
Clark's problem is that she always gives The Speech. As in, the same speech, every event, every year. She barks out the cheerleading points, notes some recent successes, and everyone claps, but it's getting a bit stale. I understand staff have attempted to point this out.
But it is true that she has had a rapturous reception pretty much every time she's given it since 2000 -- the industry is genuinely grateful, and Labour's explicit recognition of local music as something that mattered created the climate for a lot of other things to happen. But maybe now she'll consent to someone drafting her something more lyrical.
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merc,
Che, you'll need to get The Notebook out for this one, he 's used The Letterbox Stuffer Trick with powder packages.
BTW, due to you Che Not The Beret One, I have removed the 'tash, and beard, sold the 1972 280SE (yellow) and can't hang out with my brother's the Taxi Driver's in Wyndham Street (Presidents taxi's, take a trip round the world and never leave AKL). -
I'm not sure how that was new.....we sold close of 5000 copies of See Me Go in a week on release in 81; DD Smash were pulling huge crowds and selling more records in NZ than Shihad have ever done;
yeah thats true, gigs were well attended, but I don't think dd smash fans were as avid (or rabid) as shihad, we're also forgetting Bic Runga, Fur Patrol, and Feelers, They sold way more than anything that came before.
Channel z had a major impact in the non ak cities, mostly because their staff there got out and interacted. Not so much AK as you mentioned and as was demonstrated by the quick decline when they pulled the op back to just ak.
The big stick you are talking about is that re the frequency licences which are up for renewal soon?
how much of that was to do with nz on air though?
I mean you can't attribute hardly any of the late ninties kiwi explosion to funding, because that funding often came after the fact, and was pretty haphazzard, even more so now.I guess the other factors that contributed to the kiwi explosion were taste and timing. alternative became mainstream and kiwi does a good line in alternative. and quality jumped up substancially with the increased access locally to cheaper and better recording.
Screaming mee mee, bless them, didn't really cut it on see me go, although I firmly believe the blams did.
and commercial radio still had this cultural cringe thing to back them up in their decision to not play kiwi.
in the late 90's a lot of the offspring of the alternative crowd who had grown up familiar with their parents taste in local, began to get into live music too, and specifically targeted local. (as you mentioned a lot of people were going to see these bands, it just wasn't being relflected in what was aired on radio)Its interesting that helenstiens or glassons use of indie records from the 80's in their ads got every one smiling warmly, but not a single one of those tracks was ever played on air. now their part of our culture.
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the stick I'm talking about was the threat to legislate a 20% quota if it wasn't voluntarily met..I'm not giving that credit to NZoA but to Helen's government.
That threat is still implied today but I think the only potential party of government after the next election that would continue to wave it would be Labour. And without it...watch all the AOR / CHR stations slowly pull their percentages back.
Not sure what Fur Patrol sold but Cool Bananas sold 50k and the Dance Exponents over 60k of their debut, plus close to 100k of their comeback...bigger than most of the biggies in the 2000s apart from Bic I think.
You had to be a teen in Auckland to really get See Me Go...it was as much a symbol of the massive band surge that came post punk and the street pulse that followed it. They still held the Mainstreet attendance record of over 2000 when the walls were knocked down...and I think See Me Go probably still hold the biggest one week sales of any NZ single since the sixties...Scribe was number one for 16 weeks but still only sold about twice the See Me Go number. The people spoke...but radio ignored it. Indeed Hauraki had a show poking fun at it and laid a formal compliant with RIANZ of chart rigging.
and this is what All Music guide says (I'm being defensive now):
Their work for the album brought the Screaming Meemees closer to what U.K. groups A Certain Ratio and Rip Rig and Panic were up to. "Stars in My Eyes" was the last single the group released, which came out as a 12" EP with extended versions. The Screaming Meemees were as essential to the history of New Zealand rock as Split Enz and Blam Blam Blam. Their sole album is well-worth seeking out for fans of post-punk
We sold quite a few in the US after a rave review in I think, Trouser Press or Bomp or one of those.
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merc,
And the chanting at Sweetwaters, or was I dreaming..."Peeeeta, Peeeta, Peeeta..." Like Miles Peter played on with his back to the crowd.
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no need to be defensive simon. the figures speak for themselves.
Stars in my eyes was the better production although I prefer some of the album tracks, which were all pretty good sound wise, but ignored of course.Feelers did over 80 k of their first album, not that I'm holding them up as a glowing example of classic kiwi rock at all, but they probably weaked the dam a bit.
Bic did better than that.
Selmonella dub did something like 35k of one of their albums I think,
and there were a lot of bands pulling half decent figures then,What do you think lead to the major change in attitude to embracing local music in the 90's? (up till Mr RIANZ made everyone hate it again) I think we agree it wasn't nz on air, and I don't even know if it was radio play so much.
There's no doubting that there was a lot of enthusiasm for NZ music in the early 80's as you've pointed out, lots of people going to local gig and buying local product but the visible attitude was one of cultural cringe, even if a large chunk of the population wasn't cringing at all. -
And the chanting at Sweetwaters, or was I dreaming..."Peeeeta, Peeeta, Peeeta..." Like Miles Peter played on with his back to the crowd.
Ha...yes I remember that day...we had a radio backstage and the cricket score came thru...NZ had won or was close to it, I pulled Tony aside and told him to mention it....8pm Saturday night...it worked.
Peter was probably grinning at then popstar-girlfriend 16 year old Charlotte Dawson. The Meemees went nowhere without girlfriends...it was an issue.
What do you think lead to the major change in attitude to embracing local music in the 90's? (up till Mr RIANZ made everyone hate it again) I think we agree it wasn't nz on air, and I don't even know if it was radio play so much.
I think it was simply the wave reaching the shore. It had slowly built throughout the eighties and into the nineties, there was no one factor but when you layer the early indies including Flying Nun's growth and the likes of Pagan and yourself, with the increasing professionalism and recording quality, it was inevitable. I'd also like to think that How Bizarre made it seem financially viable for majors to invest in acts, which they did in the late eighties.
You once said to me in an email that you thought that The Blams and Meemees albums made it seem possible to make independent albums, which I took as a huge compliment. But also other indies ran with that and the Hood / Knox 4 track thing meant that acts didn't have to bankrupt themselves to at least get a start. They didn't have studio bills hanging over their heads to make a 45. NZ Bands made records....a big big thing...it's hard to imagine now how big...By the mid to late eighties NZ albums were very common, and the swell continued until a Bic Runga from somewhere was inevitable....and Bic, bought to the world courtesy of NZ's rock kingmaker, Trevor Reekie, opened radio doors a little. But it was the 20% threat that pulled them wide open. When that was enacted it was still only 3-4% as I recall.
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which they did in the late eighties.
whoops... late nineties!
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so bringing it back to the original point re Niel Finn's comment, do you think the govt is justified in taking credit for the successful 'turn around' of nz music (if that is infact what Helen Clark was doing).
There's no denying Labour under Clark is the most arts friendly govt we've had, but I'm still battling with the role some of the funding bodies have had in that equation. I still see NZ on Air's music program as seriously flawed, and take massive exception to them daring to take credit for things they had no part in and taking that credit off some very hardworking independent parites.That's also my understanding of Niel Finn's comment, but he should have been more specific. although I've not heard Helen Clark's reported longwinded speech so I don't know exactly what she said.
and yes the twin attach albums of the blams and mee mees did make it seem possible for local to deliver solid albums, although the reported costs of those puppies did scare a few, and even more brave when those things were undertaken without govt backing. that's something to be proud of, and why we're here discussing thse things I guess. Govt funding came about to help make thse things easier and it smarts pretty badly to see the system run into the ground as it is, run as some sort of payola scheme for drinking buddies.
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so bringing it back to the original point re Niel Finn's comment, do you think the govt is justified in taking credit for the successful 'turn around' of nz music (if that is infact what Helen Clark was doing).
Interestingly enough, I believe Phase 4 was actually approved by the outgoing Nat government, in time for Labour to announce it. The approval though was given reluctantly after much pressure and politiking by Brendan and others. That reluctance to support is now gone and the government consciously leans the other way. Regardless of what I feel about any NZoA (and I hold Brendan, as I've told you, in some regard) that is a mighty fine thing for NZ...the fault as I said, seems to be in the current execution of the detail...reform is needed.
In 1996 in London with OMC, we were denied facilities at NZ House...access to Fax / Email etc as it wasn't policy (had to use the TVNZ office). That would not happen now I'm sure. There is a degree of support that we have never seen before..ever...and being politicians I guess they want maximum bang for their buck so they make the most of it.
I do feel that HC's speeches feel like tokenism (the speech not the policy) when you hear them over and over again...but I'm grateful she's been there for 8 years to make it, and don't think you can expect such from John Key, which scares me.
Talking of dodgy old records..can I plug my new Ripper Records page here? Of course I can....
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Actually, while I wait for the taxi, I should note that the CD that comes with the controversial Real Groove - 'Awesome Feeling: Real Groove's Sound of Young New Zealand 2007' - looks really good despite its very ugly title.
So So Modern, Collapsing Cities, Pig Out, Motocade, Teenwolf ... bands I want to hear.
In an interesting little linker for this thread, the new video for The Sneaks' (who I believe appear on that CD) new single has a bit of fun with the NZOA grant.
From cheeseontoast news:
The Sneaks met up with Down Low Concept - winners of lats yers 48 Hr Film competition and comae up with an excellent way to spend their $5K video grant - bet on a horse - and film it! If they win then they get a way bigger budget, if they loose it makes for a funny clip for their new single I'm Lame.
Also the Sneaks debut album is due out June 11th, just in time for it not to be lost in the NZ Music Month craziness! [4 May 2007] -
Talking of dodgy old records..can I plug my new Ripper Records page here? Of course I can....
Wow. When you bring it all together like that it's dodgy, but legendary.
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merc,
Hell yeah, large gaps in my life were filled in before my ever widening eyes. Though I have seen both you and Simon many, many times over the years, Simon more, something to do with me being at bars and clubs, I have never actually introduced myself, Simon always seemed like a man on a mission and you RB always seemed locked into what seems like really interesting conversations.
I didn't say more than "Hi, how are you" to Lady Di either but I did raise my eyebrows and chin in the Westie wave. -
On the Swingers 'Counting the Beat' (refer Ripper Records page) I was very pleased to note that it is still a staple with kiwi primary school kids, being part of our local school music curriculum.
That ageless chorus is nice and easy and catchy for the kids to go along with (and it sure beats High School Musical, which tends to fade in allure after the 275th listen)
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the stick I'm talking about was the threat to legislate a 20% quota if it wasn't voluntarily met..I'm not giving that credit to NZoA but to Helen's government.
Yes - and to the much-maligned Marian Hobbs in particular. As I said in the original post, the other thing on the table there was the Youth Radio Network, which doubtless prompted radio to consider which was the lesser of two evils.
But I still think you and robbery are selling NZ On Air a bit short. Before Labour came in the hit discs got NZ music in the hands of programmers who (bizarrely) didn't really audition it or know how to source it.
The problem, again, is that NZ On Air is a broadcast funding agency. Its targets are all about hours on radio, and things get tricky when it goes beyond that.
That threat is still implied today but I think the only potential party of government after the next election that would continue to wave it would be Labour. And without it...watch all the AOR / CHR stations slowly pull their percentages back.
And the self-governing nature of the targets scheme means they can do that fairly easily. But, again, let's give commercial radio some credit. I always thought the high-water mark was when I walked into a shop and heard More FM not just playing a Goldenhorse record during Music Month, but hosting a live-to-air. I gather that was a consequence of DJs petitioning the programmer to get on board.
Not sure what Fur Patrol sold but Cool Bananas sold 50k and the Dance Exponents over 60k of their debut, plus close to 100k of their comeback...bigger than most of the biggies in the 2000s apart from Bic I think.
The sheer staying power of the Exponents is extraordinary, but it's worth noting that between the debut and the comeback they had a few that didn't go so well.
I think the difference in the post-2000 period was that you had years in which several acts went multi-platinum. I think Nesian Mystik's debut was about 65,000, Goldenhorse's about 45,000, Che Fu 30,000 and 50,000, Scribe 85,000. I think the Fat Freddy's album is past 100,000 now.
The D4 sold bugger-all here but about 90,000 worldwide, and, of course, Hailey Westenra's 'Pure' did two million worldwide. Signing her probably saved Universal's NZ office from closure.
Another good thing that happened during that period was the reform of the NZ Music Awards, which had been largely crap. The "academy" voting system and the dropping of sales criteria meant that Dimmer could win rock album of the year without selling as much as certain other acts. (The Phoenix Foundation's Pegasus went gold, but in general the bands we like don't sell a whole lot.)
On the other hand, it was pretty evident to look at the finalists last year that it hadn't been a banner year.
One more thing: rights income, either from synchronisation or APRA. I think that's made a difference to a few people.
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I agree with everything you say Russell, and I do give NZoA credit. I don't want to come across as attacking either Brendan or the agency, there has been phenomenal progress in the last thirty years in the way the music is presented and perceived in this country, and credit and kudos are due, and correctly, I think, given.
I do feel that commercial radio were riding the wave of that perception rather than creating it....Rob is right, a whole variety of factors created that wave and if commercial radio is anything it's populist, so putting Goldenhorse on radio during NZMM is perfectly riding that populist wave...even in the bad old days radio always had a local hero or two....the ones they played. I'm just not sure if I'd give radio credit for much more than playing a few records when it seemed smart to do so...which brings me to..
The problem, again, is that NZ On Air is a broadcast funding agency. Its targets are all about hours on radio, and things get tricky when it goes beyond that.
which to me is the problem....it comes down to one word..sustainability. The model we have now is to driven by that simple airplay target, and airplay on its own does not lead to a thriving ongoing industry. We've had countless singles in recent times, huge on radio, with albums that have had funding and videos but have flopped massively (I released one myself..and one which should have been a pointer to the way it was going but was ignored), or second albums that have completely turkeyed because massive radio play might sell some albums but does not generate a loyal fanbase....which to me indicates that A&R became radio obsessed. Think of someone like Dei Hamo...huge singles, all over radio, got the funding, but a massive sales flop. There are many. Radio play became the driving force, and killed sustainability.
Incidentally, as fine as that figure for the D4 is, it was a part of the problem....wasn't the over-ship in the US a major issue.
APRA....for sure.....and that Nature's Best concept, as much as people mumbled about the selection, was an incredible coup, and I think a wake-up call for radio too. Many of the tracks on there received little airplay but it gave the whole thing that is NZ music an historic validity in the mainstream media beyond the odd hit single.
It's a shame TVNZ were not able to treat the Give It A Whirl series with the same respect.
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Think of someone like Dei Hamo...huge singles, all over radio, got the funding, but a massive sales flop. There are many. Radio play became the driving force, and killed sustainability.
I really loved his stuff (both the songs and the videos) but there was no way I was going to actually buy it. Ditto for Pink and any other radio pop. It's nice to listen to but ... buy it?? Mainstream radio is for backround music.
We've had countless singles in recent times, huge on radio, with albums that have had funding and videos but have flopped massively (I released one myself..and one which should have been a pointer to the way it was going but was ignored)
C'mon, spill it!! Who are you talking about? I checked your website - Three The Hard Way??? Care to comment also on the oft-mentioned statement/claim that "Urban" music (ie "black/brown" music) doesn't sell because "they" (fans of said music ie black/brown people) don't actually buy it - they copy it and pass it around? I know it's racist, but is there any basis in fact? The company behind Siones Wedding claimed huge losses in sales when bootlegs turned up at Otara market ....
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Talking of dodgy old records..can I plug my new Ripper Records page here? Of course I can....
Thanks for the heads up. A great page.
It was Ripper's Goat's Milk Soap that really turned me on to NZ music. That compilation has a special place in my heart.
Cheers,
Brent.
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