Hard News: Rough times in the trade
223 Responses
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BenWilson, in reply to
Yes, that's the 10% of pure truth in what he was saying. That 90% rubbish is the price of having the other 10%. Just as 90% disproof of hypotheses is a vital part of science for the 10% (or more likely 1%) that don't get disproved. That's why I don't feel like this is a bad time for music - there's more than there has ever been before, which means there's more good stuff than ever before. The cost is that there's more crap than ever before.
It's a deeply apt metaphor, I think - both science and music could be seen to be evolving towards their form - science seeks empirical truth, music seeks beauty and meaning. But truth is an asymptote - once you know the truth, there's no more to be found. However, you will probably never know it all, because it becomes progressively harder and harder to approach, as the easier truths are hoovered up. So physicists need 20 mile wide particle smashers costing hundreds of billions nowadays, just to find out things no-one else can even understand about things they didn't even know existed. Gone are the days that a clever patent clerk can work it out in his spare time, and everyone can go "wow, so the universe is actually curved?", and have even the vaguest idea what that might mean. Similarly, one could say that there's only so many ways music can be made, so many kinds of beauty that can be appreciated. After the most attractive ones are discovered, what does that leave but smaller and smaller tweaks? And we reminisce, much as I do that programming wasn't such a bloody chore when the biggest program that could fit on my computer was 3000 bytes long. I tend to forget that I can quickly make a computer do things I couldn't even dream of 30 years ago. But whatever it is that I do is seldom going to seem amazing without a huge effort now.
I have the same take on literature as you, without having gone through the hard yards of being forced by an institution to read a lot of things I had no time whatsoever for. But I don't think this makes me smarter than you - quite the opposite, you come by your refined tastes from your extensive reading. I'm missing out. My only excuse is that I enjoy other things.
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Sacha, in reply to
Gone are the days that a clever patent clerk can work it out in his spare time, and everyone can go "wow, so the universe is actually curved?"
To be fair, he's well beyond clever. Was a gap of over 5 decades before anyone was able to progress some of Einstein's work even theoretically and they're still trying to experimentally verify it today (and not without contention).
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BenWilson, in reply to
To be fair, he's well beyond clever.
That's the only thing that really gives me pause in pronouncing the "end of X" where X is some human endeavor. The idea that we are unable to see the future and genius can strike at any time. Music could be revolutionized next year by something totally unforeseen, as could some branch of science, and we'll reflect that actually the period we lived through just had a dearth. I kept feeling this way about philosophy when I studied it, that the trend at the time toward postmodernism was profoundly depressing, because it seemed to me that it had happened many times before (and was well aware of this), and it was quite sad that there seemed to be no new ideas in that tradition. Perhaps there will be some genius (or school of geniuses) whose thought is so profound and new that they won't look out of place in the philosophical pantheon. One thing is for sure, humans have been predicting the end of days since the beginning of days, and they've been wrong every time so far.
Edit: Also, the idea that nothing ever looks so secure and unassailable as the colossal empire that has stood the test of time, days before it topples to a barbarian horde.
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Sacha, in reply to
there seemed to be no new ideas in that tradition
upending modernism seems significant enough
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nzlemming, in reply to
One thing is for sure, humans have been predicting the end of days since the beginning of days, and they've been wrong every time so far.
Unless we were right the first time and we're the Left Behind...
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BenWilson, in reply to
upending modernism seems significant enough
For the 40th time in 3000 years? I'm being unfair, of course, the modern version draws on many new thoughts from social sciences and trends in art etc. I guess that's hinting at my point here - to me postmodernism seems like electronica (seemed to happen around the same time too), a vast conglomeration of many interests delivered in a particular way, that to readers not deeply initiated seems all rather same-same, derivative, and scarily ubiquitous (a false perception). To the initiated, it's a whole world unto itself, with a core of belief they believe is new, and a wide range of difference on the specifics. Who is really to say that it's not new? It's a perennial question - "what is true novelty". And I'm well aware that people living within a time are not especially capable of judging those times with accuracy. To be able to is a mark of genius.
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Sacha, in reply to
the modern version
heh
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BenWilson, in reply to
Well to claim to be post modern, is a pretty big call, and suggests an end to modernity. I don't see that happening myself, which is half of what I found uncompelling about it.
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Sacha, in reply to
suggests an end to modernity
that would be a modernist way to interpret it, yes
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
The idea that we are unable to see the future and genius can strike at any time. Music could be revolutionized next year by something totally unforeseen, as could some branch of science, and we’ll reflect that actually the period we lived through just had a dearth.
That’s Lanier point I think. And it’s worth remarking that he came out of a milieu – the Californian cradle of digital culture – whose core belief was that the ICT revolution would bring about unimaginable creative innovation in both industry and the arts. So to hear him say that it hasn’t quite worked out so far is possibly more noteworthy that if a jaded postmodernist had made the same observations.
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Islander, in reply to
Until our kind of human- changes*-
There is a science fiction short story that plays with this idea: there is a lonely ‘normal’ in a world of instant portals and extremely widespread experiential&knowledge sources…which the ‘normal’ cannot tap.
So, people pop out of where-ever and hold conversations in several languages -with tones- about a huge range of escoteric subjects the ‘normal’ has never heard of and cannot understand the talk-made sense to me, at the time…
*as there have been other kinds of humans, maybe this kind of bewilderment has happened in the past-pehea?
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Jackie Clark, in reply to
The description of the "normal" resonates scarily with me. That's definitely how I feel much of the time, especially on here!
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BenWilson, in reply to
The description of the "normal" resonates scarily with me. That's definitely how I feel much of the time, especially on here!
Yes, word. The story Islander refers to describes something that happens to people quite a lot, although not on such an extreme scale.
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recordari, in reply to
There is a science fiction short story that plays with this idea: there is a lonely ‘normal’ in a world of instant portals and extremely widespread experiential&knowledge sources
Any chance you can remember the name? It sounds like I need to read it.
Iain M. Banks seems to have a knack of changing the foundation of belief, at least from his characters point of view. The sky is a ceiling which is also a floor being one of my recent favourites. And a virtual hell for us to atone for our worldly indiscretions. My problem is I find too much of his SciFi plausible.
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BenWilson, in reply to
No, Islander read it, not me! Yes, Banks is pretty amazing. I found The Algebraist to be pretty bizarre and interesting as a view of what the culture of an immortal species would be like. Kind of funny to think that a lot of immortals would just be Bertie Wooster style dickheads, spending their lives in something highly reminiscent of the World of Warcraft "endgame". Their interest in other species was rather like how the very highest level characters seemed to deal with lowbies - they could be helpful, or complete wankers who could gank you with a potato peeler naked (Southpark reference here). But no matter what, the most likely thing is that you couldn't really be of any concern to them for an awfully long time. The attack of an aggressive and powerful enemy was barely sufficient to rouse them from watching their equivalent of chariot racing, and only made local news on their planet. The defense was mounted by the equivalent of Open Source nerds, the only people who cared enough to bother.
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recordari, in reply to
No, Islander read it, not me!
Another reply button fail. Meant to be asking Islander.
Open Source nerds, the only people who cared enough to bother.
OSS nerds will save the world. Hadn't you heard?
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
Astounding stuff...
There is a science fiction short story that plays with this idea: there is a lonely ‘normal’ in a world of instant portals and extremely widespread experiential&knowledge sources
Any chance you can remember the name?
It sounds like I need to read it.Lovecraft's The Shadow Out of Time could be regarded as an early take on this idea...
You can read it on line here
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Sacha, in reply to
Another reply button fail
Russell even had one yesterday. Someone notify the cactuselves (problem with Reply linking to correct post-1)
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Islander, in reply to
I'm away from the home shelves at the moment, but will get it out - & reread it! -
when I return to Big O... -
[Looks for the 'Reply all' button.]
Thanks, x 3.
ETA: The problem is mostly human error though I think Sacha. Although if you quote text, it should only allow a reply to the original author. At the moment you can push any reply button willy nilly and it works.
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Sacha, in reply to
The problem is mostly human error though I think Sacha.
I am confident the system is referring to the wrong post, not the humans involved.
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recordari, in reply to
I am confident the system is referring to the wrong post, not the humans involved.
It's only a matter of time before it becomes self aware, then we should all move away from the keyboard very quietly. Shhh, it might hear us.
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Sacha, in reply to
testing for weaknesses
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