Hard News: Te Qaeda and the God Squad
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What happened on Monday might have pissed people off, and even made them feel scared, but to compare it to Parihaka is to grossly trivialise the memory of Parihaka itself.
to be honest, i'm not even sure it's a bastion point.
but it does that that air.
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nnnnnngh...
"have* that air"
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nnnnnngh...
"have* that air"
Both hands on teh heyboard, Tibby.
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It understandable that locals would think the police checkpoint being set up on the "confiscation line" was deliberately provocative. Given the above, it seems more likely to have been simple ignorance.
There doesn't seem to be any excuse for this. If it is ignorance, it's well, ignorant. If it was deliberately provocative that is really appalling. Possibly the comparison to Parihaka was stretching it but to Rua Kenana maybe not so much.
Clearly, Must. Wait. Until. More. Information. Becomes. Available.
But still the confiscation line FFS, without local maori policemen. What were they thinking? -
Yeah and I know that nobody died.
Which is relevant. -
I've started keeping a fair bit of stuff in Google Docs, not cause I'm worried about the man, but because I end up using so many PCs at work and at home, its just convenient.
The fact that its available from wherever I can access the interwebs, and that I don't have anything that I'm paranoid about Google reading over my shoulder, plus I can collaborate smoothly with the mrs or whoever else, makes it more convenient than a usb key in my pocket (although I have one of them too - its amazing how much crap you can fit in 4GB).
So even if the cops, or more likely burglars, find a reason to run away with all the hardware in the house, I can just wander to work, or a mate's place, or a net cafe and update my budget, or my shopping list or my christmas list. -
Russell
Parihaka had rape and death in imprisonment (without trial). There are comparisons in political ambition, soverignty, and the excuse of looking for arms as a pretext for invasion (a suitable word for the actions at Ruatoki). Tikowarus/von Tempskys Sword.
Creon made ref of the "real" it's worth taking a few Maori concepts (I'll muddle through as best as I can). The future is tied to the past, it is behind us (I'm not doing well here).
To my mind, Maori future is scientific - like Ice Cores from Antartica show 500K years of climate & this inturn is used to predict the future (that's as good as I can do right now).Another worthy comparison would be the 50 stolen weapons (including pistols from a personal armoury of 150 & 100 still not)recovered in Christchurch from someone "known" to police in yesterdays Press. This vs an invasion for 3 firearms in Ruatoki?
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kowhai
__ I don't know any Maori personally who feel any bond to the Treaty whatsoever, and I know quite a few.__
Are you serious?
Actually that's overstating. By 'knowing personally', I meant 'have had any lengthy dealings with'. I've definitely met plenty of Maori to whom the Treaty is a big deal. But the Maori that I associate with are for the most part just like Pakeha. It's not an inconsequential number, either. 4 out of my 5 best friends are part-Maori. Occupations are lawyer, graphic designer, computer programmer, unemployed. None of them could give a shit about the Treaty. They think I'm the lefty liberal wanker for even considering it the slightest bit important.
Yeah I don't have a wide acquaintance amongst rural Maori, as I live in the city. But I haven't noticed that the Maori around me are especially hard done by from the land confiscations of the 19th Century, or the failure to acknowledge the authority of whoever their tribal leadership is, or the more recent removal of rights to overfish local waters. They still seem to pay the same as me for fish, work about as hard, some have more land, some less.
You could say they have turned their backs on Maori culture. I think the reverse, that Maori culture turned it's back on them. Instead of embracing people who sought to live in comfort and success in an increasingly Pakeha world, it spurns them as race traitors.
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Instead of embracing people who sought to live in comfort and success in an increasingly Pakeha world, it spurns them as race traitors.
Yikes. Does it really?
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3410
Punching the man is the last course of action. The order of action should be:
1. Tell him to stop
if that doesn't work
2. Restrain him as gently as possible (which could be quite roughly and still be well short of a punch in the face)
if that doesn't work and he turns on you
3. Attempt to disengage and draw him with you, calling for help
if that doesn't work and he's locked in then yes, finally
4. Fight. Until he is subdued or repulsed.By the time you've reached 2, the child is pretty safe. They've probably run away, in fact.
Fighting is a very serious business, especially when it comes to blows. You may find yourself in prison from trying to help out with your fists. You may get seriously injured. You may injure the other person or even kill them. That's why it's the last option.
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Well, I don't think I will be getting into a Treaty discussion with you. It looks to me like you have made up your mind. I am glad that you were overstating your position because otherwise it would have struck me as willful ignorance. Sound harsh? My point is you don't know what people actually think unless you ask them. Some peoples opinions/feelings are complicated and nuanced, they may not even tell you if you ask (not that I am suggesting that your friends fall into that category).
I am glad that you at least qualified that statement. -
Yikes. Does it really?
Ooops soz, overstating again. Radical maori culture spurns them. Actually most Maori I've met in the wider circle are also similarly disinterested in the culture that is an accident of some part of their ancestry, pretty much as Scottishness is an accident of mine. The number I've met who actually speak decent Maori is less than the number of Pakeha I know who can.
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Instead of embracing people who sought to live in comfort and success in an increasingly Pakeha world, it spurns them as race traitors.
You are quite full of bold back and white statements. You must have a broad life experience. (I am not trying to start a flame war here just trying to shine a mirror back at you as to how you come across)
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4. Fight. Until he is subdued or repulsed.
Repulsed? cos you're a smelly hippie who won't fight properly? :D
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Sound harsh?
Very. I'm reporting the opinion of my Maori friends, not my own opinion. And I can only go on what they say, I'm not a mind-reader. I'm sure much of their Maori-bashing is like my Kiwi-bashing, ie they still feel a great deal of connection to the wider pool of Maori. But they're not gonna buy it wholesale, or give away rights to criticize what they don't like.
But don't get in a Treaty discussion with me. It would be long and boring.
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I'm sure much of their Maori-bashing is like my Kiwi-bashing, ie they still feel a great deal of connection to the wider pool of Maori. But they're not gonna buy it wholesale, or give away rights to criticize what they don't like.
Which is a lot like bitching about your own family, I can do it but no one else had better try ; )
But don't get in a Treaty discussion with me. It would be long and boring.
I suspect it would be a long and boring discussion as I have the goddamn thing pinned to my bedroom wall.
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3410,
"repelled", surely.
Interesting comment, Ben. I'd generally agree with your reply. I guess analogy is not my strong suit. Nevertheless, my point is that violence is not *necessarily* *always* an unjustifiable response, and I think that holds.
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You are quite full of bold back and white statements. You must have a broad life experience. (I am not trying to start a flame war here just trying to shine a mirror back at you as to how you come across)
Should I ignore this then? I don't claim 'broad life experience' nor do I see it as a prerequisite to saying what I think, in black and white. I'm just relating my actual experiences with the opinion of the Maori I know on the issue at hand. I'm willing to bet you what I'm relating is not at all uncommon.
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Well you qualified it by adding "radical" which made more sense.
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Repulsed? cos you're a smelly hippie who won't fight properly? :D
and
"repelled", surely.
http://www.allwords.com/word-repulsed.html
3410, I never said it was unjustified. After 13 years of studying various martial arts, I'm fully prepared to use them if the need arises. But the more I consider it, the less often it seems justified. Which is why as I've studied more, the less fights I've got in. Usually just bearing witness and saying 'stop' breaks up most fights. And giving in is an option, no matter how much it hurts the ego. I'd rather have a hurt ego than a hurt body, or to have hurt another body.
Stephen, I think repulsed is a good word. You want to put the other person off fighting by whatever means. You want them to think that what they are doing is dishonorable and not to their advantage. In fact, you want them to think, period. If that's achieved by being a smelly weak looking hippy saying 'be cool' then mission accomplished.
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One is rather reminded of when homosexual Bloomsbury author Lytton Strachey was tried for pacifism during WW2. When asked what he would do if he encountered a German soldier about to rape his mother, he replied "I would endevour to interpose myself."
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Stephen, I think repulsed is a good word. You want to put the other person off fighting by whatever means. You want them to think that what they are doing is dishonorable and not to their advantage. In fact, you want them to think, period. If that's achieved by being a smelly weak looking hippy saying 'be cool' then mission accomplished.
Oh, totally. Just teasing, y'know.
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http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0710/S00272.htm
Police raid organic vegetable growers.
I liked this bit....
Ms Pearfell conversed with Scoop on a mobile phone that had only this morning escaped from police custody.
Can we expect to hear questions in the house about mobile phones escaping from police custody?
I wish Scoop would desist from using this sort of language. This is a serious issue yet it reads like text from a school magazine produced by year-13 students. It makes it difficult to work out whether they are taking the piss or not.
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3410,
3410, I never said it was unjustified
You said:
Only people who really don't care about the real outcome, for whom the actual goal is the violence itself, or the notoreity, would seriously contemplate it.
Anyhow, this is getting tedious. I've conceded ground where you've convinced me (and will again on "repulsed"), but you seem to want to spend all day being the only correct person in the room so, whatever, I'm going outside to sit in the sun. :)
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I wish Scoop would desist from using this sort of language. This is a serious issue yet it reads like text from a school magazine produced by year-13 students.
Amen. But I'm afraid that despite their open editorial policy in terms of what news releases they accept, the Scoop team has... strong views on a variety of topics. Which is why they're my source of last resort.
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