Hard News: Te Qaeda and the God Squad
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So where did the idea of serpents come from in snake-free NZ? According to Servant, it had to be the Bible.
i read somewhere that when early colonial maori wanted to pretend they were speaking english they'd make a "sss, ssss" sound, the same way that people today imitate german by going "icken sprecken icken".
might be some link there, though one you'd want to put 'actual research' into.
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Ben,
The factors to be considered in answering it should naturally draw from many viewpoints. But there is not a 'viewpoint we should be most interested in', although I'm sure there is a 'viewpoint you are most interested in'. On this question my viewpoint probably is quite uninteresting because it's so damned common.
Well I disagree.
You (as far as I know) and I, aren't ever going to take up arms against other people or the state. Some other people may/were. If we're interested in why people take up arms, and in particular want to prevent it in the future, then we need to understand those people and their story, not your story or my story.
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OK Kyle, fair enough. If what you want to know about is what those people think, then yes, listening to them is the best way to find that out. My point was that what those people think is not the only relevant factor in any decisions about the subject matter of what they think.
I don't know if I'll ever take up arms against the state. It would have to get a whole lot worse first, that I do know.
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Anyone hear Ross this morning on RNZ?
Music to my ears, he said cops believe their own bullshit and so inflat charges beyond any logic.Is the theory now that the revolution will come by mailorder?
If so it proves they're cranks and not a real terrorist threat. -
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Is the theory now that the revolution will come by mailorder?
If you told me that the revolution was listed on TradeMe I'd follow the link.
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Whoever won the auction would be disappointed, because the revolution would never be as advertised, or the delivery would take a heck of a long time.
I can just see the trader feedback:
"This guy promised me a revolution then said he'd already sold it. But he took 3 weeks to refund my money and was really rude. Z--- never trade with this crook"
:-(
Response
"I never said I'd give you a whole revolution, just a rolling body. It was an unfinished project, I said so clearly in the comments section when dad4justice asked. Then you demanded a transfer immediately, but I'd already spent the money on another revolution project, so I had to flog off my ..." <truncated>:-( right back atcha.
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Thanks Russell for the first sensible evaluation of the events of this past week i've read/seen/heard.
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Any chance we can get the PAS Women's XV in here to kill this thread, or do ppl still believe there's life left (ie anything new) in it?
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What did this thread ever do to you? It just needs a stern warning and it's weapons confiscated.
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Cops are getting their intel from psychics & Broad headed the Christchurch Civic Creche case. It's all starting to make sense now.
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I must withdraw and apologise, Madame Speaker, for my earlier comment:
Any chance we can get the PAS Women's XV in here to kill this thread, or do ppl still believe there's life left (ie anything new) in it?
There are new points to discuss.
Thanks for that reminder Michael, I'd forgotten that Broad was the wingnut who saw demons at work in the Christchurch Creche (follow the link above ppl for this timely quote: Police officers in the grip of this hysteria made the grossly unprofessional mistake of treating rumour and innuendo as established fact.) So how did he go on to be Top Cop?
Also I watched both TV news bulletins tonite and saw different views of the protest Hikoi. On both channels the School Bus driver spoke about how how armed police did so storm the bus. On TV1 they had him saying it was only one cop, but on TV3 he went further saying it was only one cop -- who went to the back of the bus and then straight back out (off) again. And that there were only two students on the bus at the time! TV3 also included the Police Associations 'defence' (which TV1 didn't) that the when the Police who were chasing two Mongrel Mobsters wanted for a shooting two years earlier they had 'escaped' the police cordon by hiding on a Kohanga Reo school bus!
Kinda relevant to what happened earlier this week, IMHO. (I don't believe those Mobsters were on the previous bus without anyone else knowing). Methinks the Hikoi doth protest too much (at least on the bus issue).
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Oh, never mind. IT'S ALL DUBYA'S FAULT according to the O'Herald's John Roughan this morning .
I'd prefer to blame James Cook and Abel Tasman myself - after all if you rapacious honkies hadn't come here in the first place there wouldn't be any problems, would there?
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Oh, and thanks for brining up the Christchurch Civic Creche case - I seem to remember when anyone who said there was something not quite right about that prosecution was slagged off as some lefty cop-basher and probably a queer kiddie fiddler (which is still a tautology to many) to boot.
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I'd like to know more about the connection between Jamie Lockett Iti.
Lockett will have some sort of fantasy about going down guns blazing in a shootout with the police, which is fine if he's the only one who dies, but put that in the context of some slightly crazed Tuhoe nation faction then it's a bit more of a problem.
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Serious question: Does anyone here actually know any of the people raided and / or arrested?
I know long-time, prominent activist Sam Buchanan, who lives at 128 Abel Smith St. He was interviewed in The Dominion Post on Wednesday. (I'm not mates with him, but I just know him well enough to say hello and have a "what's happening?"-type yarn).
If the police think Sam's a terrorist, they're mad. Sure, he's an ultra-lefty, but has no interest in violence, nor does he support it's use in NZ. (He did admit in the Dom Post that he supports violence in Myanmar and South Africa - apartheid-era SA I presume - but oppression is a lot more extreme there than it ever will be here).
He also said that he and his lot are totally against weapons / guns.
He also made the telling point that while the cops were their, he and a flatmate used large knives to chop stuff up in their kitchen, which the cops didn't bat an eye-lid about.
This is similar to the early post on this thread about the cops that would otherwise be working on two murders; the raid was on the wrong targets and the cops found nothing of interest and were clearly aware they had wasted their time at these two addresses.
Sam and his lot are activists and political idealists. But terrorists? Next joke.
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I have met some of the people whose premises were searched. Some of the arrested are friends of friends, who are uniformly incredulous.
I'm not too impressed by the complete suppression of all information from the bail hearings either.
My feeling is that there is some wilful determination on the part of the police to fit facts to a pre-conceived idea here. Russell and Bomber could be right with their hinting that something big has been uncovered and the police could still be screwing things up.
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Apropos Sam: maybe the police are worried about Tuhoe emulating the Swiss and forming a Bicycle Regiment?
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I'm not too impressed by the complete suppression of all information from the bail hearings either.
Me neither. Apart from anything else this is going to mean a whole lot of unanswered questions hanging over a general election.
My feeling is that there is some wilful determination on the part of the police to fit facts to a pre-conceived idea here. Russell and Bomber could be right with their hinting that something big has been uncovered and the police could still be screwing things up.
I think "big" remains to be seen. "Worthy of police intervention" is a better bet.
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If the police think Sam's a terrorist, they're mad.
They don't, or he'd have been arrested and charged.
The most likely explanation is that someone who is tied up in what they're investigating had lived at the house at some point. You saw the same thing in Christchurch, where they went to four different houses looking for one person.
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I'm not too impressed by the complete suppression of all information from the bail hearings either.
Who determines what is made public about the bail hearings? The crown, the police or the judge? They would presumably all have different motivations for not disclosing certain information. We may have unanswered questions at the moment but would this alleged secrecy have any negative or positive effect on the defense case?
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It's not "alleged" secrecy Neil: the judge has suppressed everything but the fact that bail was denied.
If Scoop are correct, here it wasn't the defense who asked for this.
It's very unusual to have this kind of secrecy around a bail hearing. And I could be wrong, but I don't think it's usual to deny bail on firearms charges either.
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Oh, and it's the judge who determines what can be published.
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Sam and his lot are activists and political idealists. But terrorists? Next joke.
A man walks into a bar ...
"Ow!" -
Afew years back the cops ran a consistant line of shoot someone go to court & let the judge decide. Harsh but fair if constantly applied. Since the Wallace shooting the cops have either played big waiting games or not charged (their own).
Now it would seem "warning" shoots are OK too. http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/536641/1410206
I/O you're right, searching of the school bus makes sense if they have road blocks up (that they had road blocks doesn't) but why did they lie about it? Why did Maharey lie about it?
John Key tells us the SIS are involved & the photos show two teams of secret squirels running around Tama Itis town. Cops in black ninja suits and "cops" in DPMs. Is this a joint SAS operation? We have a 2nd tier SAS now called CTAG. Especially setup for NZ terrorism, oops counter terrorism. They draw on Defense & Police I wonder who was out their?
That evidence is suppressed not to be heard in the run up to an election sounds very cynical 4th term stuff.
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Who determines what is made public about the bail hearings? The crown, the police or the judge? They would presumably all have different motivations for not disclosing certain information. We may have unanswered questions at the moment but would this alleged secrecy have any negative or positive effect on the defense case?
I suspect the judge has much the same attitude towards this as the government - even if there is only a small chance that the police are correct it's still worth indulging them because the stakes are so high. If the judge releases someone on bail who then goes on to blow up a food court full of people the judicial system isn't going to look too flash. The judge also has the luxury of knowing that if it is all just an enormous blunder its the cops who will take the fall.
The HoS has a story in which Jamie Lockett claims his threats to wage war against the state were a joke he was playing because he knew the cops were monitoring his phone - this wouldn't have sounded very plausible to me a week ago but ever since the raids I've amused myself by phoning friends and starting conversations with 'terrorist napalm assassinate clark nuclear koran Tuhoe Hi its Danyl here', so who knows?
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