Hard News: The meaning of a Banana
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echoing jackie, bravo anjum. the thing about moving to a host society is that you'd have to expect your cultural outlook to change.
if someone wanted their cultural heritage to remain entirely intact intergenerationally, wouldn't it be easier in their country of origin?
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Nice to hear from Tze Ming Mok.
Your public eagerly awaits your return to blogging.
When you do got somewhere where you're the other, it's inevitable that ideas about identity are going to be cast in sharper focus.
Well I got to be the "white other" in Japan and I heard a lot of whiny crap from other Westerners about how that made them feel, how they hated being labelled etc. I am not sure how relevant it is to being Chinese (or Indian for that matter) in NZ. However there was still a bit of discomfort expressed when someone integrated "too much". They were "turning Japanese" people would say and roll their eyes as if this implied something less than authentic. My thoughts on the subject are kind of complex.
I wish I could go to conference myself but I will settle for going to Craft 2.0
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By people, I mean other Westerners.
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Even though we're not all that different, we get an increased sense of not actually being European. Well I did
absolutely Russell. I suffered from culture shock something terrible when I first got there. I was completely surprised by how "other" it was. Although, now, I find the States very, very foreign and other.
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if someone wanted their cultural heritage to remain entirely intact intergenerationally, wouldn't it be easier in their country of origin?
Maybe, but plenty of people are, or feel compelled, to move for (e.g.) economic/career/home-turned-into-a-disaster-zone type reasons. I'm sure plenty of Samoan and Tongans who came here in the 60s for jobs might well have preferred to stay in the Islands and away from New Zealand's comparative lack of respect for their traditions, but they didn't feel they had much choice.
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they didn't feel they had much choice.
yeah, i think host communities cop a lot of criticism unnecessarily.
even if a group was forced to emigrate to new zealand (somali refugees for example), it's a big ask for the host community to do more than willingly accept them, and willingly accept their differences.
why should a host community be required to change? as long as it makes people welcome, then the migrant group has little to complain about. they're able to continue to practice their own cultures (taking into account that their practices might change under the influence of the host), maintain community, and also participate in the host society.
seems like a good deal. as little utopian, but a good deal none the less.
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I'm sure plenty of Samoan and Tongans who came here in the 60s for jobs might well have preferred to stay in the Islands and away from New Zealand's comparative lack of respect for their traditions, but they didn't feel they had much choice.
And for a long time, there was a gulf between parents and their traditions, and their New Zealand children -- it caused a few problems. What cracked it for PI communities was the emergence of an urban pasifika culture that is about being a Samoan New Zealander and has heroes, role models and a sense of place.
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I get an increased sense of not being from Wellington every time I'm there. It's because I'm absolutely positively a Dorklander.
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why should a host community be required to change? as long as it makes people welcome, then the migrant group has little to complain about.
Ouch! Kymlicka to you too, sunshine!!
Because over time, the 'host' community itself changes. And indeed, there are some trivial ways in which host communties ought to change. Sikh turbans and motorcycle helmets? Forcing everyone to have a holiday on Good Friday, Easter Sunday, and Christmas day, even if those days mean absolutely nothing to, say, Hindus?
Russell's point is useful.... that over time, the second generation of immigrants merges, and creates something new with the host culture. In that sense, I'm inclined to say 'tough luck' to the first generation migrants (so no Sikh turban / helmets for them!), and simply wait for the new generation.
But... there has been a series of cases of honour killings and forced marriages amongst Pakistani migrants to Britain (which I have mostly become aare of through Butterflies and Wheels. It's not enough to put the first generation into a box over there, and wait for integration to happen. The host community needs to find some way of working with the migrant community, or in some case, atrocities happen.
Hmmm... a bit of a screed - but I think I will just go with my first reaction. I'm in the process of writing a more thoughtful piece over at my place.
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absolutely Russell. I suffered from culture shock something terrible when I first got there. I was completely surprised by how "other" it was.
Which of course eventually becomes a desire to bang your head against the wall when some FOBs turn up and complain about the weather and that the shops don't sell exactly the same products that they're used to.
Although I never regarded myself as British. A Londoner, certainly, but British, no.
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Russell's point is useful.... that over time, the second generation of immigrants merges, and creates something new with the host culture.
Which often involves rediscovering one's original culture too.
At last year's Banana conference, there were personal stories aired about growing up here that I think people found very moving. Which makes sense: it's an event about being Chinese in New Zealand.
I can understand why Keith, as a 1.5er, could do without some kid who's going to be here five minutes bellowing about the "international student cause" and "don't let the side down!". He has other fish to fry. Or possibly steam.
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Although 'more Chinese than thou' types can be annoying (I'm probably one of them at times) as can 'more Indian than thou' types, are they the primary source of racism experienced by those groups in the West?
primary? i don't know. but just as difficult to cope with. because you end up not belonging anywhere. too different to blend into kiwi culture & not indian enough to be indian. so you just end being in an in-between place that is quite lonely, at least it was back in the 70's & 80's in hamilton! as an adult i find it liberating, because i feel that i don't have to be bound by any cultural norms. however, it has been a big struggle to be able to achieve that state of mind, especially when society (any society) puts so much pressure on individuals to conform.
it's much easier for my kids cos there are heaps more local-born indians (& chinese & somalians etc etc). but i can't think of a descriptor for them that captures that place in between two cultures where children of migrants end up. i agree that banana is hardly the right word. what is? any label you think up to try and describe a particular group of people ends up pissing some of them off completely...
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Which often involves rediscovering one's original culture too.
Indeed, although that can sometimes go nasty, as well as nicely. Consider Fuckwit-Am... sorry, Irish-Americans and their often so-simplified-it's-bullshit view of Ireland and their largesse directed at the IRA, or the penomenon (discussed on PA recently) of second and third generation militant Islamic young Asian Brits.
In the case of the latter in particular I wonder how much it has to do with the ease with which one can romaticise the original culture and county from the position of privilege one's parents have provided.
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Alot of talk has rested on labels, Banana, Potato etc.
What about an imigrants English name?
Names of convience for this monocultured country to deal with.
My mums family used Sweeny as a trading name during WWI for the local dairy farm. The other was too German - ahem Polish but who cares about the detail when it's the other.
I always think it's a bit sad but if it works? -
but i can't think of a descriptor for them that captures that place in between two cultures where children of migrants end up.
you know, i really don't think there is one? which is strange considering that it is so common to so many societies world-wide.
maybe all those 2Gen people out there need to name themselves.
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I gather that this thread has sparked a whole new round on the SkyKiwi one, which is cool. Although people still seem quite hung up on the B-word, which probably isn't so cool.
Keith's been in there posting - care to summarise, dude?
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Although 'more Chinese than thou' types can be annoying (I'm probably one of them at times) as can 'more Indian than thou' types, are they the primary source of racism experienced by those groups in the West?
No that'd be us white folks. Cause everybody is racist* and there are more white folks here in the West than Chinese or Indians. If you feel the need to be subjected to racism from a primarily Chinese or Indian source go to Beijing or Dehli.
* This is true for everybody except [fill in own name here]. -
The concept of the 'WEST' is as confused as my Grandmum wanting to go back 'HOME' to England (esp. that her heritage was Scot).
All of Asia is either North or North West of us - making us at least South if not South East of them.
'West" just shows a total bollocks of where NZ is but rather illuminating as to where many NZers see themselves.
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I think the concept of the West, in a political and economic context, has been loosened considerably to include other developed and democratic countries such as Japan, Taiwan and South Korea. So as you can see, it's a little more complicated.
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Angus writes that if you need to experience racism, you should go to New Delhi and Beijing. That may be so but I can assert that in both those cities, I've never once had a complete stranger come up to me and assault me or abuse me for being a foreigner. The thing that really bugs me about New Zealand is that some New Zealanders think they've got a licence to go up to anyone Asian, or Muslim, or African, in a public place and do just that. Just ask our Asian international students and new Asian migrants. The stories I've heard just make me deeply depressed for this country.
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Now you're bringing in the false concept of 'Developed'.
I dear say a few billion Chinese might beg the question of 'Developed' & the relating concept of 'Civilisation' with you on that one (except where being undeveloped gives China an economic advantage).How can any NZer, reliant on the export of primary produce as we are argue we are more developed than say Thailand or China, as you can get far more advanced techo stuff there than you can dream of here.
Democracy is the disguise of hypocracy - Malcolm X.
The concept of West isn't complicated - it's confused.
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The concept of West isn't complicated - it's confused.
No its not, West is just a stand-in for another word that starts with W.
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Alot of talk has rested on labels, Banana, Potato etc.
What about an imigrants English name?
Names of convience for this monocultured country to deal with.
My mums family used Sweeny as a trading name during WWI for the local dairy farm. The other was too German - ahem Polish but who cares about the detail when it's the other.
I always think it's a bit sad but if it works?In my first years of teaching I was relatively uncomfortable about calling international students by their adopted EL name (something done almost exclusively by mainland Chinese and Korean students; many Malaysian Chinese students had English names they been given at birth and the Japanese students used their birth names too) but most students were insistent that the teachers use it. Their Chinese or Korean names were for their compatriots to use, not for us, and many took exception to being called by them by NZ teachers.
The process of adopting these names was always interesting. Some students took names that resembled their own (thus Yuan Bo became Rambo but there were also several girls called Li Mei who became Mary or Millie), while others seemed to pick from a pool that repeated itself--Jackie in particular (for male students) has come up again and again. For some students it was out of a wish not to hear the names their parents lovingly chose mangled by non-Chinese speaking tongues; far easier to let the teacher say "John" (to which Zhang and Zhong transliterate well enough) and get on with it.
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That may be so but I can assert that in both those cities, I've never once had a complete stranger come up to me and assault me or abuse me for being a foreigner.
In Bangkok a few years back I was in a marketplace, and an old lady looked at me and said something very loud in Thai, which got a roar of laughter from the surrounding 30-odd people. One of the Thais I was with translated: "Only a barbaric foreigner would wear such a stupid looking hat".
She had a point, it was not a hat that was common in Thai marketplaces, particularly on a head that was riding about a foot and a half above the rest of the crowd. But it just goes to show that ragging on foreigners is not a uniquely NZ experience.
But what actually shat me off more in Thailand was the automatic assumption that because I was a white guy, I was the perfect target for scamming, that I was only there to go to strip bars, and that it was OK to follow me 200 metres continuing to pester me, yank on my sleeve and suggest lurid things, after I'd clearly and loudly said no at least 2 dozen times.
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Actually most mainland Chinese I know are under no illusions about their country being 'developed'. They are quite sanguine about the label developing country. Which is one reason why they argue that the 'West' needs to cut their country slack in expecting it to meet 'Western' environmental, human rights and labour standards. I have some sympathy for their point of view without excusing the terrible abuses that are taking place. They argue that China will meet those standards in the medium to long term but that it is totally unrealistic that they be met in the present or short term. How it all turns out is of course one of the world's biggest unfolding stories. But I agree that confused is better than complicated.
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