Hard News: Those were different times ...
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Russell Brown, in reply to
There is also the incredible influence of American television programming – listening to NZ adolescents now, it is definitely more American Standard accent.
You should hear our younger boy. Jen has told me that children still largely pick up their accents from family and peers, but -- this is just my theory -- Leo, as an Aspie, is not well equipped to learn this way, and has instead been strongly influenced by the media he consumes and, to some extent, his online gaming friends, who are mostly American teens and twentysomethings.
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Sacha, in reply to
Peers now include online ones.
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Even America itself went through its own linguistic changes. In the first half of the 20th century, the Mid-Atlantic dialect was dominant in film & TV. Now, it seems to be the California-West Coast accent that's in vogue.
I'd wager things truly started to change with the youth cultures of the 1950s, and further reinforced by New Hollywood and the associated counterculture, which all did away with the Mid-Atlantic formalities of Old Hollywood epics and musicals.
Come to think of it, closer to home the bodgie & widgie subculture - clearly American-inspired - would probably have been another factor in pulling away from the influence of 'Mother England'.
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Sacha, in reply to
In the first half of the 20th century, the Mid-Atlantic dialect was dominant in film & TV. Now, it seems to be the California-West Coast accent that's in vogue.
Doesn't that reflect a consolidation of mass media/culture industries there from the east coast?
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
Doesn’t that reflect a consolidation of mass media/culture industries there from the east coast?
Indeed. It all coincided with New York losing its entertainment industry monopoly to Hollywood, even though the TV stations are still NY-based.
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The Samoan connection with LA would be an interesting influence on language in NZ, especially Auckland. Seem to hear the same "rrr" sound as Southland has from young Pasifika people now.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Peers now include online ones.
Overwhelmingly, in Leo's case.
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Sacha, in reply to
And he's interacting with them verbally as well, eh, as gamers sometime do?
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Simon Grigg, in reply to
Come to think of it, closer to home the bodgie & widgie subculture - clearly American-inspired - would probably have been another factor in pulling away from the influence of 'Mother England'.
And then came the 60s.
I'm trying think of another country on planet earth too, that would have so compliantly re-introduced the core of the British feudal honours system as we did just a couple of years back. Mother England is not as distant as we would claim it to be.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
I’m trying think of another country on planet earth too, that would have so compliantly re-introduced the core of the British feudal honours system as we did just a couple of years back. Mother England is not as distant as we would claim it to be.
In Australia, John Howard is staunchly monarchist, even though he didn't bring back knighthoods. He did, however, effectively set up the republicanism debate to fail.
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Simon Grigg, in reply to
In Australia, John Howard is staunchly monarchist, even though he didn't bring back knighthoods. He did, however, effectively set up the republicanism debate to fail.
True, but can you imagine the fuss in Australia if he had tried to reintroduce these? From across the spectrum I'd argue.
We are quite different in that way. I think it's accepted that it's when rather than if Australia becomes a republic - partially because of it's history which was never as subservient as ours (witness the withdrawal of forces from Europe in WW2).
The reintroduction of honours in NZ was perhaps an indicator of how distant that conversation is in NZ.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
And he’s interacting with them verbally as well, eh, as gamers sometime do?
These days, yes. He’s been doing voice chat with his buddies for a couple of years now, in-game text talking for a long time.
It’s a pretty safe environment, really. There’s sometimes a bit of talk about bong hits and such, but we’ve discussed that, and we agree that if there’s any time that he might do that, it’s some way in the future yet.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Yes, however influenced by online buddies one might be, getting an actual bong hit from them is quite unlikely.
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We are quite different in that way. I think it’s accepted that it’s when rather than if Australia becomes a republic – partially because of it’s history which was never as subservient as ours (witness the withdrawal of forces from Europe in WW2).
The reintroduction of honours in NZ was perhaps an indicator of how distant that conversation is in NZ
It's often a shock to read things from Malaysia, where titles proliferate. It bristles against my sensibilities, and seems wrong compared to (by no means egalitarian) neighbours where their use is more sparing. Then I realise that New Zealand engages in the same game - it dances around class, and the implications that the titles had and still have, especially in relation to the country that bore them, pretending as if there is none.
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Sacha, in reply to
it's a challenge for game designers..
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Simon Grigg, in reply to
Then I realise that New Zealand engages in the same game - it dances around class, and the implications that the titles had and still have, especially in relation to the country that bore them, pretending as if there is none.
Quite. The implications in the homeland are quite ugly, as is the history - often quite recent - behind them. Our benign - rose tinted even - grasp of the Imperial British legacy still astounds me at times.
As does the oft repeated nonsense that the British were better colonial masters than the Dutch, French or Belgian monarchy. It's a pretty low bar to start with - but go and ask the Malaysians, Singapore, China, or the whole Indian subcontinent for their version of that story. Really.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Mother England is not as distant as we would claim it to be.
It's one of the things that has always made me feel like a stranger in my own country. I've never got the Mother England thing.
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Simon Grigg, in reply to
I've never got the Mother England thing.
It's odd the way that any half baked story from the UK seems to get instant media legs - both tabloid and mainstream - ahead of big parts of what happens in our own backyard.
Australia has always been brilliant at working out where they sit in the world and adjusting their gaze to suit. New Zealand - in very general terms - on the other hand, seems stymied by an inability move its focus from the past to the future. It frustrates.
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Example of living in the past - when news stories about food prices ignore *rice* as a staple. Not everyone lives on mulk and cheddar.
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Simon Grigg, in reply to
Not everyone lives on mulk and cheddar.
Immediately after Chch in February, one report we were watching talked of the urgent need to ensure fast access to milk and bread. I probably wouldn't have blinked if I was in-country but it sounded mighty odd from this angle.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Immediately after Chch in February, one report we were watching talked of the urgent need to ensure fast access to milk and bread. I probably wouldn’t have blinked if I was in-country but it sounded mighty odd from this angle.
East Asia in effect. Most of my Chinese friends struggle with the reek of dairy.
Still, Fonterra’s out there changing minds and raising cholesterol levels ;-)
Meanwhile, just think of it as a noodle crisis.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Quite. The implications in the homeland are quite ugly, as is the history – often quite recent – behind them. Our benign – rose tinted even – grasp of the Imperial British legacy still astounds me at times.
And yet, the ability to engage with British cultural tropes was an important part of my self-realisation as a younger man. I still do feel a strong affinity for parts of the culture.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
And yet, the ability to engage with British cultural tropes was an important part of my self-realisation as a younger man. I still do feel a strong affinity for parts of the culture.
Too true. Cultural fascination is one thing, cargo cultism is quite another. It applies equally to Britain and America.
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Joe Wylie, in reply to
Australia has always been brilliant at working out where they sit in the world and adjusting their gaze to suit.
Except, perhaps, where that brilliance has been eclipsed and bedazzled by things imperially American. The Hawke-endorsed Crocodile Dundee posturing, essentially a mass fawning to a US audience, might have faded with Steve Irwin, but it's one of the more resistable traits of the Oz national character.
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Jackie Clark, in reply to
Yes. I merrily went on my OE in 1987, expecting to find a culture much like mine, expecting there to be not many differences at all. I think I was in culture shock for the first few months. And yet, so very many of my compatriots seemed to have no trouble at all fitting in. I suppose that if you are Pakeha, one's family would have something to do with it - in my family, England was never mentioned, let alone as being the Motherland. My family has always been firmly rooted in Aotearoa soil, and my father was a great lover of all things New Zealand. My maternal grandfather was born there, but he never talked about it in any depth, , and so I had no interest in that aspect of it at all. The language was the only thing, and that was questionable, in common, I found. For me, everything about it was different to what I was used to, and I found nothing familiar or comfortable, or even relatable about the place .But returning to accents, the regional accent differences in the UK absolutely fascinated me. Such a tiny country, and such huge variations in language. I’m sure Jen could shed light, but I still can’t really get my head around why the differences are so huge.
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