Hard News: What to Do?
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FWIW - I noted the posts a few pages back about the potential role of the Clerk in analysing the quality of referenda questions.
The Clerk of the House actually does this with regards to the primary questions submitted every sitting day for Question Time. Admittedly it's more to do with standing orders and making sure they're appropriate to ministerial authority than anything else - but it is a part of Parliamentary process.
{exit boring geek mode}
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And I'm a Southlander who's migrated to Canterbury via Central Otago - there's definitely a lot more awareness of a Maori dimension up north, we southern honkies don't get exposed to Maoritanga that much.
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I'm with steven c here: there are very few places in the world where later incomers freely & happily use the indigenous term for themselves. Rejoicing in - or just accepting of - the fact that you are a Pakeha (almost certainly from pakepakeha - a pale kind of sea-fairy) means you have a relationship with taha Maori - who called your kind such (and not with malice, but with accuracy & - as steven c says- affection.)
And a Pakeha is a person of European *or other non-Maori* descent *born* here (you needed to have been a fly on the wall on the several marae that I've had this ongoing & longstanding discussion with fellow tribesfolk...)
Yes, that is a loaded definition.
Yes, 2 parts of my lineage are Pakeha.
Yes, I am a very proud Kai Tahu.
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Oops, I should have added "though we may be sympathetic in principle". We may be willing enough, we just don't get any practice.
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Gregor Ronald - Kai Tahu have been around Otago , Central, West Southland, & Southland for several centuires.
You, personally, may not have been "exposed to Maoritanga that much" but many thousands of folk in the southern areas come from bloodlines like myself.
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So I heard they're banning karate in New Zealand for under 21s.
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And, following your last post, "though we may be sympathetic in principle' - "we just dont get any practice"- sic.
I'd think that is because
a)your family doesnt have local Maori links, and
b)they dont care to find out about what local Maori are doing etc.Note: these comments apply to any other ANZ citizens who dont know anything about their fellow citizens & neighbours.
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In fact I've decided hat I'm going to use my vote to cancel out Bob McCoskrie's vote
Maybe we need to go further. Let's cancel his voice.
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I saw some unpublished analysis that showed a very high correlation between answering "New Zealander" and experiencing redness of the neck.
I don't recall seeing a "redneck" tick box on the form...
I am the product of many generations in New Zealand,and am an atheist. I feel no tie to Europe. I identify myself as a person of New Zealand - as a place, not as a nation. I am a product of the culture, the land and the sea, and the opportunities that exist here.
Pakeha might be the appropriate Maori word. But I don't know well enough what it means, and I'm not keen that any ethnic group should be forced to be indentified by someone else's label.
If the stats people crunch my "New Zealander" as a white man, that doesn't offend me. But the suggestion that people answered that way because they are rednecks does.
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WH,
I think Graeme is right in his interpretation of the law as it stands. There was a certain amount of strategic opacity in Bradford's public advocacy (that's not intended as flame bait).
To the extent that the question assumes that a smack can form part of good parental correction, I suppose it does beg the question.
I wonder whether it's intended to avoid defining the limits of 'reasonable' smacking. If the referendum succeeds and the law is changed, we would still need a replacement for s.59, the original problem that Bradford used as a bait and switch.
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Logan O"Callahan - just out of sheer curiosity (and in the interests of winning a bet with a lovely neighbour of mine who says that 6 generations of pure Pakeha descent is the most -she is such an old citizen!)- just how many are "many generations"?
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many thousands of folk in the southern areas come from bloodlines like myself
Some of us in Auckland do too...
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And Danielle - *some* of us throughout the entire wonderous archipelago!
(You wouldnt happen to have any links south? she asks hopefully?) -
Kai Tahu, Kati Mamoe. This is my great-great-aunt.
(I am also blue-eyed and the palest-skinned person ever, so it's not readily apparent. :) )
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Thanks for the link Russell. I was pretty astounded when Boscawen's survey result came back with the Vote Yes response and then a written comment that made it clear he actually thought Yes was the option that supported his private members' bill.
Melissa Lee didn't answer our survey but David Shearer did and he said Labour wouldn't be telling people how to vote on the referendum at all.
Also I'd point out that it might have taken the media a bit of time to focus on the absurdity of the question, but not so in other necks of the woods, see this post for some examples ridiculing the question back in April.
And of course the good people at The Yes Vote campaign have been concerned about it for some time. I understand that early this year or late last year the intention amongst many of the allied groups to run an abstention campaign, but they changed their minds (no doubt having had some of the conversations in the thread above) to promote a Yes vote instead. Personally I'm veryglad they did.
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Islander - just a question and I'm interested in your opinion. My pakeha ancestors arrived here in 1823 - that's not far off two centuries and I think about 7 generations ago. Will there be any point in the future when my family line can claim indigeneity of Aotearoa/NZ?
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O! O! O! Whanaukataka, Danielle! It's a bit complex, but my great grand-dad was Tieke/Tiaki Mira (Kai Tahu, Kati Mamoe - paticularly through Kati Hawea) and I also descend through Piraurau (Tai Poutini and Southern) and Motoitoi...I'll check the whakapapa stuff, but obviously you *are* part of the tribe/s!
My Mum is *very* pale skinned, and green-eyed, and until late middle-age, was aurburn-haired...my late Uncle Bill was brown-skinned, darkbrown eyed, and -until adolescence - auburn haired...
O I love the variants and chanciness of whakapapa! Hooray for us all! (and I mean, humanity!)
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Hilary - ah! I win the bet with you!
As soon as you bury your dead in the land - or a child is born here (used to be, bury the placenta of a child born here) - according to Maori belief, you *are* indigenous...I suspect your family can claim indigeneneity well before the Pakeha side (Orkney Scots, arriving in the v. early 1840s) of my family can- cheers! -
Ur, the child certainly is, and yoyu have a right here, because your dead is/are buried here-
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1. The Winston's compulsory super referendum wipeout is a classic example of why the whole direct democracy concept is flawed. If legislated the old fashioned way (as Australia had done) we would be massively better off going through this current economic crisis with a massive pool of domestic capital behind us.
'Leadership' would have resulted in us doing what's best for our nation and future generations against our short term instincts.2. In no way do I consider myself a redneck and I wrote in New Zealander.
I now live in Europe and I can safely say, whilst acknowledging my European roots, I feel culturally distinct because of my New Zealand-ness and wished to record that. Pakeha would work for me as well.As for the Ethnicity v. Nationality point, it is somewhat undermined by the fact that the form itself included choices that are as much 'nationalities' as New Zealander is.
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Islander -- just a reply to your comment a few pages back. I'm pretty sure that the paper I alluded to only exists in paper form (possibly even a book!), but I may have an electronic copy on an old Mac formatted CD. However, with the power of technology I should be able to digitise it.
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But I don't know well enough what it means, and I'm not keen that any ethnic group should be forced to be indentified by someone else's label.
A good response to this is this post by Tze Ming on PA ages ago.
I think it's also worth bearing in mind that Pakeha, or whatever else a person might like to call it, culture is young and not yet well formed. The awkward truth is that what most distinguishes New Zealand Europeans from Australian Europeans or whatever is really about the influence of Maori on that culture. The word kiwi, symbols like the fern frond and the haka.
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Sorry about my glib use of the word redneck earlier - didn't intend to offend anyone but I can see how it would. I can't supply the material I mentioned, but Statistics NZ's official analysis notes:
In the 2006 Census, those identifying as New Zealander:
* cover all ages, and are more likely to be male
* have higher regional proportions in the South Island than the North Island
* are most often born in New Zealand.In contrast to the total population those identifying as New Zealander:
* have an older median age, and tend to have more educational qualifications
* are less likely to be of Māori descent, and have higher incomes
* smoke less than the total population
* are more likely to live in a rural area.There is a more detailed report linked from that page.
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As for the Ethnicity v. Nationality point, it is somewhat undermined by the fact that the form itself included choices that are as much 'nationalities' as New Zealander is.
I agree it does not distinguish between for example Tongans and Tongan New Zealanders born here (or is it New Zealand Tongans?).
Reporting figures lumped together too much is another whole problem.
Anyway, Tze Ming is way more informed about this stuff than me. Do read her prize 2004 essay "Race You There" if you haven't already - on that linked page.
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Finally, here's a thought experiment.
How does disability fit as an ethnicity, the way it is officially defined?:
Ethnicity is the socio-cultural group or groups that people identify with or feel they belong to. An ethnic group is a group whose members have some or all of the following characteristics:
• share a sense of common origins
• claim a common and distinctive history and destiny
• possess one or more dimensions of collective cultural individuality
• feel a sense of unique collective solidarity.Ethnicity is self-perceived and people can belong to more than one ethnic group and may change their ethnicities over time or in different social contexts. Ethnicity is not the same as ancestry or race. People frequently identify with ethnicities even though they may or may not be descended from ancestors or related people with those ethnicities.
Now imagine what the census form would have to say to encompass that wrinkle.
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