Legal Beagle by Graeme Edgeler

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Legal Beagle: Just get the App, already

17 Responses

  • Scott A,

    Thank you for this, Graeme. Quite interesting, from my legal geek perspective. Seems like there's a legislative fix or two required!

    Which will probably end up being done by private members bills entered into the ballot by backbench government MPs!

    The wilds of Kingston, We… • Since May 2009 • 133 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    I can't demonstrate this, but I've got a fairly clear recollection that it used to be possible (in Auckland) to get a boarding pass at the gate and/or the Koru Klub, and that there were kiosks at the KK for this purpose. In that case, Air NZ were encouraging a substantial number of passengers to breach aviation law?

    (And I see I noted this originally and AirNZ still sez you can go to gate with an eticket bar code)

    Are all etickets deemed boarding passes? Or do they become passes only when printed?

    I still think the actual reasoning was that it was decided that Brownlee should pay a fine in order to receive absolution, and the status of not having a boarding pass was dragged up in order to justify this. Has anyone else ever been fined for this infringement?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Scott A,

    Actually, the Civil Aviation Rules can be adjusted by the Minister - it doesn't need new primary legislation. Obviously they've been lax in doing this as they don't reflect current practice.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    Slightly off topic, but I hear the warnings from the “Federal Aviation Administration” that air NZ is running about Note 7s on domestic flights …. Is it that the NZ CAA missing in action here and ANZ just making do? Or does the FAA actually have some legal authority in NZ? Or maybe just TPPA come early?

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • izogi,

    Thanks, Graeme.

    And Gerry Brownlee didn’t have a boarding pass.

    Isn't it standard in most/all New Zealand airports for boarding passes to be issued before security? Whether it's at a check-in desk or printing it. Must he have forgotten, or do Ministers typically get special treatment with this sort of thing?

    And maybe, if anything good is to come from Gerry Brownlee’s escapade, we could fix that?

    It seems strange that there haven't been obvious efforts to fix it already, especially if it apparently embarrassed the CAA enough to unlawfully redact its explanation.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1139 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Paul Campbell,

    The FAA was first to issue the warning (being probably the largest and best resourced civil aviation regulator). This would only have been mandatory on US flights, but Air NZ will have prudently applied it across the board.

    The CAA probably should follow suit, but haven't I don't think.

    Regulation of passenger equipment is a bit new. Traditionally, problems have been with aircraft, and the aircraft manufacturer (and their national aviation regulator) takes the lead - EASA for Airbus and FAA for Boeing).

    I don't think it's sinister.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    Oh I don't disagree it's prudent, I think they're completely within their rights to ban them for safety reasons, I just don't think that the FAA has any authority in NZ - legal or moral for that matter

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Paul Campbell,

    You think that because the ideology of the US is suspect, we should ignore any technical findings (such as that a plane is liable to have its wings fall off) that come from that source?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Hooton, in reply to izogi,

    No, it's no longer standard. Many people use the app so don't have a physical boarding pass (nor does the airline know they are in the airport) until they reach the gate.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2007 • 194 posts Report Reply

  • Kurt Mastrovich, in reply to Matthew Hooton,

    The argument here though is that if he'd had the app with the electronic boarding pass then there would be no grounds for an infringement notice.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2010 • 13 posts Report Reply

  • Kurt Mastrovich, in reply to Paul Campbell,

    In many ways it does as the authority that issue the type certificates and technical standard orders for a great deal of aviation equipment on, in and around aircraft and the very aircraft themselves. Aviation is a very interconnected industry and in NZ as in many countries our regulator often rubber stamps (or a version of rubber stampting slightly more involved than the imagery invoked) the work done the FAA, EASA etc.

    FAA, EASA, CAA etc through their respective Governments are all ICAO compliant organisations. ICAO being an agency of the UN that sets standards and best practices for the global industry.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2010 • 13 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Matthew Hooton,

    (nor does the airline know they are in the airport)

    Yeah, I'd always thought a big part of the check-in process was so the airline knew the passenger was actually in the building, and able to board the plane.
    It seems to me that 'checking in' before getting to the airport could create more problems than it solves, logistically....

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7944 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    I think the way most pax are now on non-refundable tix reduces that. If the airline's got your money, what do they care if you turn up or not?

    Also, I'm told by people that know that a lot of airports have cellphone tracking systems that not only know which pax are in the airport, but where they are (shops, toilet, bar, etc): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/Big-Brother-airport-installs-worlds-first-real-time-passenger-tracking-system/

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to Matthew Hooton,

    Yes of course. But when people use the app, they have the app and so they have a boarding pass, don't they? (Maybe they haven't gone through the motions of telling it to officially issue the boarding pass?) People not using the app have to print a boarding pass before arriving, or visit a kiosk, or visit a check-in desk. In whichever case, as far as I'm aware, they get it before they go through security.

    So what logical scenario could there have been for Gerry Brownlee to approach the security zone without already having a boarding pass? Do Ministers get special treatment? Was someone else holding it for him?

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1139 posts Report Reply

  • Walter Nicholls,

    I've always thought it was silly that guardians of unaccompanied minors don't get to carry some documentation. Given the paranoia that is airport security, it seems quite sensible that anyone without proof of their reason to be air side, should be rapidly escorted to an interview room.

    Also, this may be being picky, but app use wasn't anything like as common two years ago as now. And might there be rules about what Government ministers are allowed to have installed on their phones? (Rules that are almost certainly not followed!).

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Jul 2008 • 42 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    How much of a deterrent is getting a boarding pass to some miscreant? All you have to do is spend a few dollars buying a ticket?

    I think the main reason they don't want randoms airside is just crowd control. (It's not so much a problem in NZ, but imagine in less-developed countries like the US if all the beggars and chancers could get airside).

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

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