On Morals
98 Responses
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(and if you click on page 1 on that thread and then click on page 2, you get to see a full page of posts, not the 4 that were there a second ago).
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The difference seems to be clicking on "Last Post", and not "Read Topic". The lads are looking into it right now.
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Thing that sprang out to me: abortion is considered very significantly more acceptable than wearing fur. That's...I don't even know what to think about that. (I mean, yay on the abortion stat, but...what happened to our hunting culture? Possum fur? Surely we're all good with possum fur? No?)
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The pages are holding way more than 20 posts...
And, Lucy Stewart, I also wonder why 'fur' and not 'leather'...I'm sure as shit not going to abandon my possum& merino socks & jerseys - or my wonderful jacket lined with 12 of the little... Oz imports-
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Possum fur okay - mink not okay. Baby seals definitely not okay. What about rabbit?
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I'm boggled that cloning, adultery and polgynous marriage are the things that have the most unanimous disapproval.
Clearly the male outrage artists of the future will clone their wives, marry them and then encourage them to have sex with someone else.
More seriously, I'd love to see age and regional breakdowns for all these questions. Also, I applaud that they quote the questions verbatim: I am often irritated by accounts of surveys that purport to say what people think without telling you what they were asked. Let's see if our newspapers can be bothered including this important information when the report the results...
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Rabbit?
Eat 'em & wear 'em much as you like- -
And, Lucy Stewart, I also wonder why 'fur' and not 'leather'...I'm sure as shit not going to abandon my possum& merino socks & jerseys - or my wonderful jacket lined with 12 of the little... Oz imports-
One wonders if perhaps people associate "fur" with, say, "dalmatian puppies" enough to have skewed the answer. But like you say - the stuff is hardly rejected in our day-to-day lives...
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OT but kinda relevant - you can get the mostest bestest rabbit pies in the Bakery in the Precinct in Oamaru-
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Hmm. I need to move back to Oamaru. The lack of NZ style pies in the UK is starting to really bug me.
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Fark the morals - Wolf's Back! Yippeee!!!
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I'm boggled that cloning, adultery and polgynous marriage are the things that have the most unanimous disapproval.
I'd definitely like to see a gender/location breakdown on that.
Frankly, on cloning: what's the big deal about differently aged twins? Yes, there's a lot of potential for psychological damage with mad parents cloning themselves so they can "get another go and do it right this time", but the people who would do that are probably going to be abusive controlling helicopter nutcase parents anyway. The fact that the child is genetically identical to them, rather than 50% someone else, doesn't change that, I think.
In this case, I think that people are confusing a visceral distaste for the very idea of cloning - coupled with a certain luddite "don't mess with the natural order of things" - with an actual moral principle.Ditto polygyny (I'm willing to bet that the idea of polyandry never entered most people's minds) - people find the idea a bit icky, so they think it's wrong.
That said, I'd argue that most moral questions boil down to the "icky/not icky" test for most people. Just how we're wired, I suppose. Plus, if you hear about people who have derived a substantive moral principle and actually stick to it (say, Kant, Peter Singer), they usually come across as inflexible, humourless prigs. Who may be right, but that's beside the point. ;)
Hmm. I need to move back to Oamaru. The lack of NZ style pies in the UK is starting to really bug me.
Pie Minister in Bristol. Best pies in the UK. And they have a location in Islington, so you've got no excuse.
Anyway, think yourself lucky: I've been home for nearly four years, and I still can't find anywhere to sell me pork & stilton sausages. It's driving me mad.
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Frankly, on cloning: what's the big deal about differently aged twins?
Nothing, but until we solve the issues with epigenetic marking and severely shortened lifespans, it's not okay. And it would need some very tight regulation, because there is huge potential for abuse.
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It's fascinating. The oddities just highlight the power of social engineering*, word association, & straight out familiarity.
"fur trade" isn't just wearing animal skins - it's clubbing baby seals and killing off endangered species. I bet most of the people who said they believe it's morally wrong are just repeating their conditioning, without having given it any thought since the last greenpeace pamphlet arrived in their letterbox 20 years ago.
"homosexuality" has had enough years of activism and exposure (ref: familiarity) to make people question the reactive "unnatural" tag they (or their parents) had been brought up with.
"divorce" & "abortion" are givens; if you have had one, or can imagine needing one, or are close to someone who's had one, then you're more likely to be ok with it. Granted, there's also a social engineering influence; because they're legal and available, people are more inclined to opt for them, therefore people are more likely to be tolerant of them.
...and I reckon abortion's level of moral abhorrence is less due to the "murder" aspect than people think, but more because it's perceived to be predominantly employed by "irresponsible" young women. For conservatives, it's a very easy target to reinforce their crusade against sexual immorality."polygamy" suffers from the associations with patriarchal coercion, nutty personality cults, and from the lack of any progressive debate prompted by any western active/activist community. To my (limited) knowledge, there's a growing number of people that view polygamy as a valid lifestyle choice, but I've been trying to work out why there's not that much desire to start the debate.. I guess polygamist individuals tend to viewed as peers by (& hence move predominantly in) social groups that already endorse the right to most non-heteronormative/non-exclusive relationships & extravanilla sexual recreation - it's something that they generally don't have any need to share outside the group. I guess it'd become a society-wide issue if more polygamous partners wanted to start having children, but so far that seems to be predominantly only the isolationist religio-fascist headjobs have gone / been made public with that one.
* I might add: I'm using social engineering as a neutral term. I think our supposedly immovable moral code is based pretty heavily on our environment and the views of those we associate with. I have no problem with the government changing the rules to change opinions, as long as it's accompanied by (or intended to promote) a more advanced debate than thou shalt/shalt not.
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Apart from the gender difference, there's a large age factor on the homosexuality question. Overall, 61% think homosexual relations are "morally acceptable". But that rises to 71% for the under 44-year-old group, compared with only 41% for the over 60s.
That said, I'd argue that most moral questions boil down to the "icky/not icky" test for most people.
Yeah I tend to agree. On that subject, here’s a bit of a time waster, if anyone is interested: Morality, Taboo and “the yuk-factor”
Here are my results. (Note: my “universalizing factor” was indeterminate, as I found nothing morally wrong in their scenarios so they couldn’t get a fix on it. I’m reasonably universalizing, though, in the sense that they meant it.)
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In terms of the number of people in the sample who supported the death penalty -- I suspect that this is down to the leading question asked in the survey:
Should the death penalty as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?
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did they ask a question about whether or not it is moral to support the illegal invasion of a central asian country and the subsequent bombing of families from several thousand metres above?
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Don't be silly, Stephen. What's that got to do with Morality? That is Foreign Affairs.
It's all separate catagories, see: Foreign Affairs, Economics, Crime, Health, Social Issues, Morality.
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thanks Steve [smacks own forehead, loudly]
i totally forgot!
killing in the name of-----it's just politics, nothing to do with morality.
how could i have been so dumb!?!
[note to self------must go home and re-learn these category thingies] -
Ben Austin - $4.50 for TWO (Tuesdays & Thursdays before noon only.)
I love the rabbit & the veggie; the chicken? Bit heavy on the plum sauce for my liking. More carnivorous family people assure me the mutton pies are better than Willets (heresy!); the aged beef & whisky
superb, and the bacon & egg & onion really really droolsome- (there's beefmince, &steak& cheese also, but I dont know a family person who's eaten those yet)and they are not small pies! They are your handful oldfashioned pie-size...
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Jack - thanks for the tip. I'll maybe check it out in the weekend as I think I'll be up that way.
Islander - I am shocked that Willets would at risk of being dethroned - but I would agree the Steak and Cheese comparison is the real test - I look forward to hearing your thoughts on that matter.
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There's a Pie Minister at Borough Markets too - and Square Pie at Spitalfields - but the UK is sadly lacking in meat pies with added cheese.
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I feel as though it says something about us as a country that a discussion about morals has morphed into a discussion about pies. Mmmmm, delicious pies. I'm now trying to work out when I can next go to Oamaru...
ETA: I'm using this edit button whether I need to or not!
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It's all separate catagories, see: Foreign Affairs, Economics, Crime, Health, Social Issues, Morality.
Excellent. I'm tempted to get into politics just so I can be Minister for Morality.
Which makes me ask: could we refer to their opposition counterpart as the Spokesperson for Immorality?
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I want to be Minister for Pies.
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