Posts by Juha Saarinen
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I'm merely taking things to their somewhat extreme and a little amusing conclusions. To me, if you substitute "flag" with "willie" in the pennant palaver, you'll get a bet far better idea what the waving around is actually about.
One positive side-effect of this thread is that I looked up the history of the flags where I come from - the Nordic countries. Yes, I used Wikipedia... but here goes:
Finland, where I was born - the flag came about after the independence from Russia. They held a competition in fact, without a Kevin Roberts in sight. Seems the design comes from... a yachting club flag. Hmm, maybe that could work for NZ too? With a nice Louis Vuitton or Prada bag in the corner?
Denmark: Dannebrogen fell out of the sky when the Danes were out and about in Estonia for a bit of burnin' rapin' lootin and a-shootin' (not sure if they had gunpowder at the time, but it rhymes) and got stuck in a tight corner. Oldest flag in the world, apparently.
Sweden: the Swedes basically copied Dannebrogen, but changed the colours. Seems the flag was first used in Finland, when the southwestern part was a Swedish Duchy.
Norway: now this an interesting one. Before cloth-waving became de rigueur, the Norsemen had all kinds of cool symbols like dragons, serpents, and ravens. Then they got SNAGGY with it, and started using Danish and Swedish flags, until the union with the latter country. They then used a flag similar in concept to the NZ one, with a "herring salad" mashup of the Swedish and Norwegian flags in the corner.
Most interesting however is the fact that the Sami have their own flag. They've been pushed towards the arctic by later migrants, and now live across the four countries in that region. Now they have their own officially recognised flag which probably isn't much comfort really.
And Lewis... of course if you remove something you, well, remove it. It goes away. The things attached to the object removed also disappear - some instantly, others fade slowly away. That's why the act of removal should be a conscious decision where the consequences are understood.
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Choice. I now have Google Maps on my Windows Mobile phone. Probably no 3G coverage out there on the logging roads though...
Speaking to Richard Simpson was good actually. Very interesting to hear the "tear down the Harbour Bridge" story from the horse's mouth instead of its rear-end as one does when reading the Herald. I fully share Richard's worry that soon it will be too late to transform Auckland into a well-functioning modern city, but hope that at least some of his ideas will come true.
My vote's for a foot bridge which will take bikes as well as pedestrians, and permit Segway riders to be pushed into the harbour should they venture onto the crossing.
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Well, logically speaking, removing a historical emblem lessens its significance. Eventually, it gets written out of our immediate history - how many remember what the Canadian flag looked like before the Maple Leaf? Removing the Union Flag means burying some history, and we should be clear about that.
If it's a clean break with all things British we want, it needs to go further than just replacing the flag though. Making Maori compulsory in school and on street signs is needed (I don't understand why it isn't like this already in fact) with perhaps the goal being the phasing out of English.
As for a new flag somehow magically bringing forth thousand years of Maori history, I'm not so sure that will work. Perhaps if Kevin Roberts gets a few hundred million to come up with some slick commercials on it...
What's the problem by the way with keeping the Union Flag but adding for instance the United Tribes one on the other side?
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Not eating well is an issue and probably one factor causing poor performance and behavioural problems at school.
However, in the case of the Herald you may be attributing to malice what is adequately explained by the reporter and editor in question not having had breakfast that day and getting dazed and confused with all the numbers whirling around in front of them.
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__Well, I think _God Save the Queen_ has to be the most appalling anthem ever.__
Depends on the version... the one popularised in 1977 was rather catchy and the hacked lyrics of it are unforgettable.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Maple Leaf flag came about as a compromise and the Wikipedia (I'm not a little hesitant to quote it now) article hints at it when it says:
"Pearson was leader on a minority Government and risked losing power over the issue; however, Pearson knew the Red Ensign with the Union Jack was unpopular in Quebec, a Liberal base of support. The Red Ensign was strongly favoured by rural English Canada, the heart of Tory support."
The Union Flag is of British origin (or Scots, Anglo-Saxon and Northern Irish if you must) but I would suggest being careful with Year 0 restarts of history nevertheless. If anything, the present NZ flag needs to incorporate a Maori equivalent to the Union Flag. I don't like the idea of wiping out what little history there is in NZ.
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I think the Wikipedians know who Russell and I am. The ones who called the article spam appear to be Kiwis, one of whom claims to have arranged government functions even.
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Canada is a poor example for New Zealand to follow. That flag came about as a compromise to resolve a stoush between the remnants of two colonial powers, Britain and France, that was threatening to get really quite serious and tear the country apart.
Did the indigenous people of Canada have much say in the look of the new flag? Did they care much about waving a piece of cloth around in an excited manner as their colonial masters do?
The equivalent for New Zealand is to have the Scots, Irish, English and Welsh duke it out over the new pennant. There's probably quite a bit of that national-chauvinism in the present flag debate, masquerading as true Aotearoan sentiment.
Nah, I think my OLED flag suggestion has merit. That way we could Goatse all the various unpleasant rulers that pop over to NZ to check out the sheep and perhaps prick a few holes in the hot air balloon of bogus nationalism.
Another thing missing is an update to the National Beast of New Zealand. Is it the Kiwi at the moment? Terribly outdated if it is. I bet something like the Great Noisy Petrol Lawnmower or the Lesser Schoolkid Laden 4WD would be more popular and contemporary.
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Why not make the new flags OLED devices with wireless networking capabilities that would let anyone upload whatever design they like at any given time?
Silly? Perhaps, but only as much as expending all this time and effort on a concept that is by definition designed to be inclusive for a minority through the exclusion of the majority. To say that nothing good will come out of the flag debate would be the understatement of the century.
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It was several hostile Administrators/Edtors, all anonymous, plus someone from NZ who deleted everything within minutes - and accused us of spamming. Looks to me like a vendetta of sorts, as there was no good explanation given.
This wasn't quite how I thought Wikipedia works. :\
Here's the link to the AFD page for the Kiwi Foo Camp article. Note that you should not post anything in defence of the article or otherwise comment on things there, as it appears that that is frowned up on by the Wikipedians.