Hard News: Tragedy into Crisis?
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Matt Poole: sounds like I spoke of the devil:
http://stuff.co.nz/707339a17217.html
Funny and scary both at once, very Spy vs Spy. David Lange's Oxford Union speech is still timely.
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DeepRed
When was that posted ?
What I was trying to point out was that it appears as though the Sikh Society has done a U turn from their initial stance of not lodging a formal complaint against the police and are now lodging a complaint at the insistence of the family.
M Poole
Could you point us at the earlier reports where the police indicated they were waiting for firearms to arrive ? I can't find any, the repeated line I see in all the reports is
Police said they had to establish where the gunman was before they entered so no one else's life was put in anger.
What we do know is there was another armed robbery going on in Otahuhu at the same time....
I'm not suggesting the cops are gutless, far from it in fact. Just that they have been known to make mistakes from time to time. Little pumpkin's Mum's body left in the boot of a car for a couple of days while they searched everywhere but the obvious springs to mind.
Kyle sums it up perfectly
Not letting any police failures off the hook, but staying focused on the criminal.
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DeepRed
When was that posted ?
It was postmarked Tuesday night.
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Are there 2 Sikh communities operating perhaps ?
This from monday morning..
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10516568
The guy was able to walk around and go to the toilet after he was shot, it's pretty clear the end result should have been better
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Unsaid: that that might have been what encouraged DC Taylor to think he could go around protocol and approach the kid directly. Taylor's colleagues, the poor bastards, had to look at his dead body lying outside the house for hours afterwards until the subsequent standoff ended.
Since there have been a few mentions of DC Taylor in this thread as an example of why the police shouldn't rush in when a gunman is involved, lets take a minute to review that case (courtesy of Crime.co.nz - hence the flowery prose). The bold highlights are mine.
__5 July 2002 began like most other day for Detective Constable Duncan Taylor. Saying a quick good-bye to his wife and their 11-month-old son, Campbell, he dashed out the door and was gone. Later that day while enforcing a protection order at a Rongotea farmhouse, he was shot in the head and chest and died instantly.__
Detective Constable’s Duncan Taylor and Jeanette Park were following a young local resident by the name of Daniel Luff, to the Taipo Rd farmhouse. When Luff lept out of his vehicle with a stolen, high-powered rifle, Detective Taylor tried to stop the young man.
Meanwhile, the owners of the farmhouse, Robert & Christine Cocker were at home with one of their daughters, Stephanie. Stephanie and Daniel Luff had dated for several months previously and the young man had not taken it well when Stephanie had tried to finish the relationship. The protection order had been taken out only two weeks before, when again Luff had arrived at the farm with a firearm and had threatened to kill himself.
When Stephanie saw her ex boyfriend arrive she hid, then escaped out the window and took refuge at a neighbour’s house. Her parents then barricaded themselves into a part of the house where the young gunman couldn’t reach them.
Detective Taylor got out of the police car and confronted the youth. Daniel Luff then shot the Detective in the head and the chest at point blank range. As he lifted the firearm to shoot at Taylor’s partner, Jeanette Park he smirked and fired 3 times. While trying to flee the scene Detective Park received a shot to the thigh, and felt one narrowly miss her head, leaving her to drag herself 700m to call for help. Meantime Luff broke into the house and refused to come out.
When the call came in to the armed offenders, Detective Sam Hansen was one of the first on the scene. As he and the dog handler pulled up along side the ambulance he had no idea that the officer being treated was his wife, Jeanette. They carried on towards the Taipo Rd farmhouse where Duncan’s body still lay. A few moments later Hansen was called back to accompany Jeanette to the hospital.
The siege carried on for the next 4 hours, with Daniel Luff refusing to come out or to let anyone check the condition of the Duncan Taylor. There were more shots fired but eventually the youth was gassed out of the house and police arrested him with the help of a police dog.
Although the siege was over, the man known as a gentle giant lay dead at the scene for almost 24 hours before his body was returned to his wife and son.
Lets pause to acknowledge the heinous nature of this crime and DC Taylor's efforts to intervene ...
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To continue: how does this compare with the Manurewa liquor store robbery? With all due respect to DC Taylor and his family; he made an error in confronting a person with a gun, mental issues, and a Protection Order against him. Taylor was obviously trying to do the right thing (Taylor knew Luft and thought he could talk him down) but clearly it was not the right course of action. So I'm glad the Police have now established protocols to prevent similar instances occurring. But a gunman fleeing a liquor store is not the same as a known offender entering premises with a weapon and prior bad acts.
I'm also sure Taylor knew the risk he was facing in confronting Luft, but did it anyway because he knew there were others in the house about to suffer. His actions were clearly heroic.
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The guy was able to walk around and go to the toilet after he was shot, it's pretty clear the end result should have been better.
That kind of made me think the opposite. We're talking about some minutes' gap between assembly and entry, and the poor man died hours later in hospital.
People are assuming that if the police charged in unarmed at first opportunity, he'd have lived -- but that's really not clear.
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People are assuming that if the police charged in unarmed at first opportunity, he'd have lived -- but that's really not clear.
True (that it's not a given). If I seem stridently Anti-Cop on this issue I'm not. But I think there are valid questions raised, and I look forward to both the Coroners report and any inquiry/review of Police SOP.
And a conviction of the killer(s). -
Glenn, try reading this article or this one. Both say that a need to send in armed police contributed to the delay. Are you sure you actually looked beyond that one article?
Also, Singh died in hospital roughly 12 hours later. He wasn't DOA at hospital, or when the ambos finally got into the store. If he had been, you might be in a position to make such firm statements as "it's pretty clear the end result should have been better". But he wasn't, which makes it incredibly difficult to pontificate on what the outcome might have been. Leave that to the coroner, who will undoubtedly call on senior ED and HDU/ICU docs to contribute their educated opinions on whether or not the 30 minute delay was a significant contributing factor to Singh's death.DeepRed, that cartoon is brilliant. Best laugh I've had in a while.
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I look forward to ... any inquiry/review of Police SOP
The ultimate tragedy would be if all the busy-bodying and criticism of the police response resulted in a change of SOP that sent unarmed officers into a situation that lead to them being shot to death.
I fully support the ARV concept, and think it's overdue for Auckland to have AOS-level officers on the streets at all times with firearms, but firmly believe that any meddling with how unarmed officers respond to incidents where shots have been fired is inviting disaster. -
Hi folks. As promised, here are the links to this week's Media7, featuring a panel discussion on the police's PR wars with former detective inspector Graham Bell, longtime police reporter (and now academic) Dominic Andrae, and investigative reporter Phil Kitchin.
Windows Media clips of the show.
And the YouTube version.
It was a pretty useful discussion.
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here are the links to this week's Media7
Part 2 of the podcast version refuses to work for me. If I wget it, I get a zero-byte file. The other three parts work fine.
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More from Verpal Singh:
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:35:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Verpal Singh <verpalsingh@yahoo.com>
Subject: [AEN] In continuation of the small note....
To: AEN <aotearoaethnicnetwork@aen.org.nz>This morning's story in NZ Herald seems to have created the impression that the decision to complain against the police is of the "whole Sikh community" of New Zealand -- hence the following clarification.
New Zealand Sikh Society (AKL) on whose statement the Herald published the story is one of 14 (fourteen) Sikh Societies which are mandated to run Gurdwaras (Sikh places of worship) in their areas. Of these six are named NZ Sikh Society (name-of-the-city). Following is the list of all the societies managing Gurdwaras:
1. Auckland Sikh Society Inc. Gurdwara Sri Dashmesh Darbar 158 Kolmar Rd, Papatoetoe, Auckland 1701 Ph: 09-279 9888 FAX: 09-279 9889
2.Bay of Plenty Sikh Society 26 No. 3 Road, Te Puke 3071 PO Box 357, Te Puke Ph: 07-573 4204
3.NZ Guru Ravidas Sabha Inc. 1998 Great South Rd, Bombay Hill, Auckland PO Box 461, Pukekohe, Auckland 1730 Ph: 09-236 0477
4.New Zealand Sikh Society Inc. SH-1, Te Rapa Hamilton 2001 PO Box 9464, Hamilton 2015 Ph: 07-849 4952
5.NZ Sikh Society Auckland Inc. 120 Princes St, Otahuhu, Auckland 1702 PO Box 22579 Otahuhu, Auckland Ph: 09-276 9043 FAX: 09-276 9236
Gurdwara Sri Kalgidhar Sahib 70 Takanini School Rd, Takanini, Auckland Ph: 09- 296 2376
7.NZ Sikh Society (Christchurch) 55 Westgrove Avenue, Avonhead, Christchurch Ph: 03-358 7801
8.NZ Sikh Society (Hastings) Inc. 402 Eastborne Street, East Hastings 4215 PO Box 162, Hastings 4201 Ph: 06-870 7039
9.NZ Sikh Society (Palmerston North) 7 Amesbury Street, Palmerston North PO Box 982, Palmerston North Ph: 06-354 5497
10.NZ Sikh Society (Wellington) Inc. 8 Button Lane, Waitangirua, Porirua 6006 PO Box 13598, Johnsonville, Wellington Ph: 04-235 6246
11.NZ Nanaksar Thath Isher Darbar 102-104 Great South Rd, Manurewa, Auckland Ph: 09-266 3590 FAX: 09-267 2666
12.Sri Guru Singh Sabha Inc. 127 Shirley Rd, Papatoetoe, Auckland 1701 Ph: 09-277 7745 FAX: 09-277 6884
13.Tauranga Sikh Society R-41 Cheyne Road East, Oropi RD-3, Tauranga 3001 PO Box 3097 Greerton, Tauranga Ph: 07-543 4317
14.NZ Guru Ravidas Sabha Hastings Inc. 193 Havelock Road Hastings P O Box 808 Hastings
Of these societies, NZ Sikh Society (AKL) is just one. All these organisations are independent entities and do not even share a common constitution. They have their own independent organisational structure. If one was to contact any of these organisations, one will find that no one has been contacted for their views on the matter of lodging a complaint. In addition to these organisations, the following organisations do not manage any Gurdwara but work in various other fields like arts, education, family violence, etc:
1. Kuk Punjabi Samachar PO Box 200034, Papatoetoe, Auckland Ph: 09-250 4844 FAX: 09-277 0121
2.NZ Punjabi Youth 79A Park Avenue, Papatoetoe, Auckland Ph:09-278 0670; Mob: 021-552080
3.Sikh International Gurmat Trust 40 Water Street, Otahuhu, Auckland Ph: 09-276 9181
4.Sikh Naujawan Sabha New Zealand PO Box 27727, Mt Roskill, Auckland Ph: 09-620 0966; Mob: 027-484 9769
5.Sikh Religious Trust of New Zealand 48 Station Road, Papatoetoe, Auckland
6.The Sikh Centre PO Box 76730, Manukau City, Auckland Ph: 09-277 2832; Mob: 021-250 0175
All these organisations have their own membership and their own independent voice. Till last year, NZ Sikh Society (AKL) was claiming to speak for the whole Sikh community for no other reason than they "said so". Sikh Council of New Zealand was created to stop their hijacking the whole community and acting like dictators. Sikh Council of New Zealand has membership across all existing organisations -- that is, our members are also members of at least one of the existing independent organisations. The only organisation that actively opposed the formation of Sikh Council was NZ Sikh Society (AKL), specifically Daljit Singh and Manpreet Singh, as they saw it as an attack on their hegemony.
It is surprising that these guys have been able to fool the media for so long in claiming to speak on behalf of the whole Sikh community. It is quite easy to check this by calling any of the contact numbers given above and asking them whether they had any input in the claimed "community decision" to lodge a complaint against the police.
Kind regards, Verpal Singh
Chairperson, The Sikh Centre
Secretary, Sikh Council of New Zealand
PO Box 76730 Manukau City, AKLD Ph: +64 9 2772832 Mob: +64 21 2500175 Email: verpalsingh@yahoo.com -
DeepRed
Holy Shit, I was joking when I said maybe's there's 2 ! There's 14, 6 with the same name !
M Poole
No there are several reports (I won't bother linking to them all) that mention the police waiting to verify where the offender was with no mention of waiting for firearms.
The Dom Post doesn't actually say they were waiting for firearms, just the guy hypothesising that could have been the situation.
However, I do concede that Herald article does have them waiting for firearms. (I didn't see that one before)
I guess we'll just have to wait for the inquiries to determine what really happened.
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Cheers DeepRed
So they're promoting themselves over the expressed wishes of the victims family.
I kind of want to see them lay the complaint now and see what happens. I expect a judge will give them a bit of a dressing down over it.
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Glenn, I'm surprised that so few articles mention the firearms issue. Maybe the reporters took it as a given that our unarmed police meant people would know that there's a delay while firearms are delivered and distributed?
That you were aware of the Otahuhu incident, and the need for a senior officer to divert from there to Manurewa, says that you know perfectly well that the shooting required resources in excess of those immediately available.
It's interesting that you're the only person who's suggested that the delay had nothing to do with waiting for firearms. Out of all the positions taken, nobody else thought that it was in the least unreasonable that our primarily-unarmed police might not have had firearms (or sufficient firearms, since the dog handler who was first on scene likely had a pistol) at their disposal with which to ensure they were armed in response to the possible threat. Why do you think that is? Are you that cynical about the police's motivations? -
Talk about fighting back...
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10517831
I can see where they're coming from, but how long will it be before someone does a Bernhard Goetz?
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Is this starting to look like firefighters committing arson?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10519882
Its methods include snatching handbags from unsuspecting restaurant-goers, then watching their victims' reactions before advising them on how to protect themselves.
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Is this starting to look like firefighters committing arson?
I don't know, but it's going to be tears before bedtime when someone snatches the handbag of a rather irritable Asian woman who already knows how to kick arse, thank you kindly. :) Good Lord, I actually think every woman should have some eye-gouging, testes-crushing self-defense skills. But going out at night and draging strangers into alleys to make the point? Sod that.
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Do they have to pay a fee before the handbag is returned or are they terrorising women for free?
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What if the potential 'victim' happens to have a concealed weapon, and the end result is a homicide? There's just too much potential for blowback.
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Come to think of it, what would Deborah Coddington think of the AAG, let alone having her purse "snatched" by them?
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Yet more sabre-rattling in the news, irrespective of how noble the cause. (The Granny Herald is actually being reasonable for once.)
I'm hoping that everybody pulls their heads in (yellow, sepia, brown and white alike). But I'm uncomfortably inclined to believe that Manukau could be one fuse away from a social thermonuclear.
Putting "race" into arms race:
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=quNEzN0_toc
Ditto for the 2nd half of the video:
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=BKTw-UHalZc
Notice the shopkeeper @ 3:30 carrying a sub-machine gun:
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=kHRZv52hIYQ
If there was one good thing to come out of the smouldering ashes, it was increased grassroots efforts to build bridges between the previously warring factions.
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Hmm, was this all a business venture for a protection racket?
"the AAG would consider hiring local Triads to protect his people from violent attacks"
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10520221
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"the AAG would consider hiring local Triads to protect his people from violent attacks"
I heard that on national radio today. I had to check to see if I hadn't somehow switched from national to some sort of comedy station.
You can imagine the triad's response. "Wait, we already run one protection racket on these people, now they want us to run another one? Sweet..."
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And so the arms race begins. Thankfully the thermonuclear fuse hasn't been lit yet though.
In the long run, the thin blue line needs a stronger shade of yellow and sepia. Apparently they've been trying to recruit from the Asian community for a while now, but haven't had enough responses.
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